This is Shayna from Capoeira-Connection.com - not sure if anyone here remembers me - it's been years since I've logged into these forums!

Anyway, I randomly came across this article in an online newspaper from the state of Paraná, and thought I'd translate and share it with y'all  

MAN GETS BEATEN UP BY HIS CAPOEIRISTA EX-WIFE AFTER STABBING HER

October 17, 2011

Some of the things that 38-year-old Rosângela Miranda da Hora has learned in capoeira have helped her to save her own life. On Saturday the 15th, she was at home with her family in the neighborhood of Vila Esperança in Maringá, when her ex-husband, 51-year-old Luiz Carlos Claudino, showed up. Although under a restraining order, Luiz invaded Rosângela's house and stabbed her. Rosângela reacted despite being injured. After beating up the aggressor, she immobilized him until the police arrived.

According to Rosângela's testimony, her ex-husband arrived at the door nervous and wanting to talk. When she refused to see him, he forced his way into the house. As Rosângela tried to stop him, Luiz took a knife out of his belt and tried to stab her in the chest - but she tried to defend herself and the knife cut her hand.

Despite her injury, Rosângela unleashed various capoeira attacks on her ex-husband. When he fell to the floor, she immobilized him until the Military Police arrived.

Luiz Claudino spent two days in the University Hospital of Maringá. This Monday, the 17th, he underwent various exams at the Medical-Legal Institute to document the injuries he suffered. He should be imprisoned in the 9th Subdivision of the Civil Police for domestic violence.

Original article (in Portuguese): http://maringa.odiario.com/policia/noticia/502362/maringa-homem-leva-surra-da-capoeira-de-ex-apos-esfaquea-la/

DAMN, that's a blast from the past!

I think you'll find that even though the forum has the same name, it's a VERY different place to back in the day. Much less traffic, and most of the old timers (myself included) rarely, if EVER, post.

Thanks for sharing.

Hey Grande,

Yeah, I can see that there seems to be virtually no activity here anymore. As for me, I got more interested in actually training capoeira than in discussing it over and over and picking it apart. Then I moved to Brazil, started working a ton, and got married - so checking forums kind of went out the window  :-p

See you around!

Shayna

Great, now my heart's broken :(

hey shadowcat like your lyrics translation page, excellent stuff are you still training?. Grande theres possibly not a lot of traffic as you lot, the original virtual community have all `grown up' capoeira wise. The rest of us ask questions you were debating a long way back, on the plus side for that the old topics have taught me, enough for me not to have to revive them as new topics. They have given me a breadth of view that I haven't come across except from those guys in my group who seriously research capoeira,( it added to my `disobedient student who won't tow the line and worship me as Rightful Ruler an God In Capoeira' anger from my professora in my old group but thats another story.) On the negative side for you lot no-one is at the equivalent stage for discusion of capoeira GCSE's (exams taken at 16 in the u.k) an instead are still fixated on whether we can run as fast jump as high an have better toys than the next kid.

Thanks, Lennon  :-)  Yes, I'm still training. Not as much as I used to, but such is life!

And here I thought you were born with the last name Oliveira :)

Who you training with in Salvador these day?

Hey ShadowCat, thanks for sharing and welcome back.

Great story,  It's always good to hear about people applying their training in Capoeira.

Thanks Shadowcat!

fight the damn spam!!!

Wow, great article!  Is this kind of thing common?

I'm not sure how common it is, probably not very common, but a great article none the less.  The woman must be a true warrior.

I looooooove this article! It's FANTASTIC that our capoeira sister Shayna caught this article and even better that our capoeira sister Rosangela Miranda da Hora was adept enough with her capoeira not only to subdue a knife wielding attacker, but to then immobilize him until the police arrived. It's lololol funny to me that she smacked him around so powerfully that he needed medical attention. Served the sucker right for invading our young capoeira sister's home.

Axe Capoeira! Axe Rosangela!!

This article is especially appropriate, given the questions I've asked in my WHERE ARE OUR CAPOEIRA WARRIORS thread...

Probably not common at all, and that's both good and bad: good that most people are adult enough to NOT break into each others' homes and assault one another, and kinda bad that capoeira is so undervalued as a self defense method by the masses that there is genuine shock-level surprise [ maybe not from the people on this board in the overwhelming majority, but to a large degree many people EVEN ON THIS SITE don't view capoeira as a viable self defense method and don't train it for self defense and other purposes ]  that a young female capoeirista was able to successfully defend herself from an attack.

I really don't care too much for the "is capoeira good as a self defense" arguments.  The important thing here is that it WORKED FOR HER when she needed it.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I meant to be with my post, my Capoeira Brother, and for that? I apologize. Capoeira--and any other martial art--trained functionally is very good for self defense and everything else it can be used for [ which is everything in Life ]. Not only do I think that it's wonderful that our capoeira sister used her capoeira successfully against her cowardly assailant, I can't sing her praises loud enough.

What I was referring to is the perception that capoeira isn't functional for self defense--even to many capoeiristas--and that is a direct result of the tatters and dysfunctional disarray that we as a whole--worldwide--have allowed capoeira to fall into [ visavis effective self defense training methods and essential perception of what capoeira is ]. As I mentioned in my thread, gungfu bjj judo karate taekwondo cardio boxing cardio kickboxing MMA fitness workouts etc etc are excellent for fitness fun socialization health etc but every one of those practitioners know that they are working with an essential combat form. Most of them will never have a fight in their lives, don't want to fight, will never compete, and are just fine with that. So am I.

But what they've trained in not only works combatively? It's that combat facility which drew them to the fitness health social holistic and other rewards. Capoeira--due to its wholly unique matrix--can easily outdo all of them in that regard. Let's show those facets of capeoira, so there won't be such shock [ even amongst capoeiristas ] that capoeira is a highly potent self-defense weapon too.

Maybe the shock that you are talking about is really to our advantage.

That shock works to our advantage only if:

1. We as a whole [ worldwide ] train with combat functionality firmly in mind and mandated in all that we do; which we do not.

2. We train students and mestres in this method of innovative combat functionality, which if anything will MAGNIFY the shock value of our self defense skills [ which we do not ].

3. We realize that excusing the current state of affairs [ virtually zero functional self defense training ] is both anathema and inimical to capoeira's warrior heart and soul, and the worst kind of disrespect to capoeira's warriors. Capoeira's warrior legacy is vanishing by the second, by the hour, by the minute ,by the day...and we make excuses for it online and in our practices.

There IS NO EXCUSE for such a travesty.

Capoeiristas have always fought to preserve our freedom, dignity, culture, history, and continued existence [ as well as proliferation ] in every way humanly possible. We are now effectively allowing the vital warrior core that birthed, maintains and propels capoeira--her warrior imperative joined with her mighty spiritual power--to pass away. There is no justifying such a thing; most especially when the very same moves that we all know and love in the roda can be tweaked during class and shown how they can be used combatively versus today's threats. And we can do it in mere MINUTES. It's EASY TO DO.

We have no form of excuse for not doing so and we deserve every bit of our ancestor's condemnation if we don't do so.

So who is going to be the one to teach all the mestres how to teach capoeira as self defense?

Our main training is in the roda - how would you like to see that change? Would you like to see more faked groin shots in the roda? More games with multiple attackers? More weapons in the roda.

The noncombative mestres can simply study fighting and transform the movements we see in the roda into actual fighting movements, and adjust our stance [too wide, face too open, to easy to grab, leg kick, tackle, get struck by weapons, too slow ] our ginga [ too slow, not enough variety, keeps us open to being timed, tackled, leg kicked, struck by weapons ] defenses and attacks [ make contact ] without much problem. Start off with simple realistic combinations drawn from taekwondo, muay thai, gungfu, boxing, karate, wrestling, judo, and bjj. All of these movements are already in capoeira, so you don't have to become a practitioner of other arts to know how to train combatively. Look at movements from other arts that are also in capoeira, train those movements and then do the same when you train all the rest of capoeira's attacks and evasions. It's EASY. I'll make a video showing you how...it's that easy. Any mestre worth anything at all can make the adjustment in a hour or so...and keep adjusting and improving for life.

I was talking to a friend of mine named Rob yesterday, and he pointed out that far too many martial artists don't know how to TRAIN COMBATIVELY. He's right. Now, my training methods will be alot more direct functional and combative, and they won't be specific to fighting other capoeiristas. The approach I will show is effective against anyone, any style, any weapon, and it shows both defenses against and uses for guns too...and I'll show that in upcoming videos.

We're much more functional and inclusive than all of the training videos you're about to see in the list below, but the list below is a good list to start your own training ideas from. In the list of videos below is one of mine that I incorporated because just yesterday when I was sparring with some of my friends [ who are trained in different styles including Muay Thai TKD wrestling etc ] I used some capoeira moves in a multifight when we were training vs multiple opponents [ really making contact with each other, really doing takedowns slams etc ]. Hope you enjoy.

http://youtu.be/6-EaUzDGT-U

http://youtu.be/vUudLG7QUeM

http://youtu.be/sDZctljxtok

http://youtu.be/aYBXYjTtfdQ

http://youtu.be/v6C-YmS5Mco

http://youtu.be/8Zwqh7nemDk

http://youtu.be/b8dIHFxENRA

Thanks man,

Here's another vid of capoeira combining styles!

http://youtu.be/8Zwqh7nemDk

Yes that link...which is part 1...is in the array of links I left in the post above yours. I also have Part 2 of the Capoeira Angola Street Self Defense seminar in Oakland, so you might want to peruse my links and check out each one. The links are little gems in the treasure trove that is capoeira...

Here's another!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ZCJCtLwLM

Good eye, but I am not really a fan of this video because it's too obviously choreographed.

Wow, challenging a master at their school.  Just like a good kung fu flick.  Do they really do that???

What you're forgetting and out of touch with, my friend, is that capoeira has ALWAYS been a fighting art...it's only after it's dessimination worldwide around the 1960's and 1970's did it really and seriously begin to lose its fighting root and application. The economic opportunities to make a living teaching purely capoeira [ something that was largely unthinkable before, especially for Afro-Brazilian mestres ] was now a burgeoning reality, but at the cost of the combat core and warrior energy of capoeira...which is the very thing that has sustained capoeira in the face of all its many persecutions over the centuries.

So there's no need to challenge the old mestres TO FIGHT; we need to spread the doctrine of ACCEPTING capoeira warriors to ALL capoeiristas; in the same sense that you won't find a kickboxing or boxing coach who AT ANY TIME will tell you that boxing or kickboxing is NOT for self-defense and SHOULD NOT be trained that way. The assertion, my capoeira brother, is completely idiotic on its face. I'm not saying that YOU'RE idiotic, but that idea--the very idea that a warrior art spawned to acquire and maintain freedom and dignity in the face of centuries of attempts at slavery and destruction and degradation--should be seriously approached or even THOUGHT OF as a NONcombative endeavor is...completely ridiculous and stupid. In fact? That attitude is part of the problem and proof positive and indisputable that capoeira has fallen faaaarrrrr too far away from its warrior roots.

These very same old mestres would embrace the return of capoeira's warrior spirit, capoeira's warrior training, the preservation of capoeira's traditions regarding the roda and song and malandragem, music dance spirituality, culture, fitness, and the recording and preservation of capoeira's warrior history. In fact? This same warrior core would spawn originality and creativity too...as most capoeiristas I've seen have pretty much the same or amazingly similar capoeira "games". They play similarly. In the same way that say...Freddie Roach or Floyd Mayweather Sr. or Jeff Mayweather or Roger Mayweather can do and should rigorously, personally, energetically and combatively teach younger boxers the fine art and science of boxing while preserving the lore and the customs of boxing...without having to step into the ring themselves? Our old capoeira mestres could and should do the same visavis capoeira. And our younger mestres [ men and women ] should also engage in direct competitions with each other and other arts in order to maintain the absolutely, indisputedly VITAL combat skill and edge of capoeira. This training will also mandate continued evolution of the capoeira arsenal, which adds to the elements of the roda, and which continues to stoke the matchless creativity and spirit of capoeira.

Ras.. I guess im having a hard time with the notion or idea that, after provoked, instrutor and above students wont engage you within the dialogue of a capoeira game.  I can, just off the top of my head, think of 5 people all around you that like to mix it up.

Also, I think you would agree, theres different ways to challenge people within a game of capoeira.   Watching a direct, straightforward attack/ attack/ defend game can be exciting.. but if it is your norm and you are unable to express yourself in a roda any other way, your game, and I would say your capoeira career will be limited.

My friend, I don't see a need to PROVOKE someone to recall to mind and practice capoeira as the warrior art it encompasses; the elder capoeira mestres should REMEMBER it that way. Probably still PREFER it that way...just the majority of their paying students DON'T WANT TO TRAIN IT that way [ at least at first; nowadays and for DECADES now...a very strong argument to the contrary can be made ]. This is part of the point I was making in the second paragraph of my original post.

I have no problem with enjoying a rough and tumble capoeira game, though. And if those 5 people that you can think of are near Long Beach CA? I'd love to mix it up with them, too. That's just PRACTICE, lol. Like sparring is for boxers and kickboxers.

Lastly, you are correct that I would agree that there are different ways to challenge and accept challenges in capoeira. I agree that if one only had a straight-ahead, straightforward attack/defense/counterattack paradigm, that much of the uniqueness of capoeira could/would evaporate. However, the danger DOES NOT LIE in the preservation of the NONcombative challenge methods; the noncombative challenge methods and corresponding lack of self-defense skills and warrior ethos are very much alive and thriving and well. What's in danger of wholly evaporating from capoeira is the COMBAT CAPOEIRISTA, the true WARRIOR CAPOEIRISTA. The very fact that we're having this discussion [ and even worse, we're tripping over very basic aspects of capoeira street and warrior skill and having some miscommunication in the process of having this discussion ] is gigantic proof of the LACK OF PREVALENCE of warrior training in capoeira and the DISPROPORTIONATELY HYPER PRESENCE of NONcombative capoeira.

When boxers/kickboxers/karateka/grapplers/weaponmasters/everyone else wants to hone their combat skills in a noncombative way? They can shadowbox, use the mitts, heavy bag, pads, put on light gear and spar with light contact, work weapon patterns and drills, grappling drills and positional skills, etc. They never trip over the difference between having a [ still combat training, combatively skilled ] older coach observing them practice, getting in the ring with them and hitting them, making corrections and giving valuable instruction, working the mitts with the younger warriors, fine tuning the heavy bag practice, etc etc as well as teaching them about legendary old skool boxers like Sugar Ray Robinson and Hammering Hank Armstrong aka LITTLE PERPETUAL MOTION, and dispensing hard earned lessons of wisdom about life itself. Same with all other martial arts coaches/teachers.

Capoeiristas as whole worldwide OVERWHELMINGLY [ at least 85% and that's being KIND ] don't work their self defense skills, their contact malandragem, or anything else that reliably translates into direct self defense skills in their practice. They mostly workout and shadowbox to music...largely in a language that they don't speak. It's rhythmic calisthenic gymnastic shadowboxing+yoga to the sounds and language of a culture that's usually not their own. That pretty much sums up their training. Not being disrespectful, but let's call it as it is and keep it real.

Do you think that Mestres Bimba and Pastinha, Mestre Cordeon and others, DIDN'T grow up hitting kicking sweeping and tackling people, dealing with sneaky skillful knife attacks and doling out same, etc etc for DECADES? They and all of the previous capoeira mestres were WARRIORS. They could ACTUALLY FIGHT. And guess what? They are also near pinnacle expressions of all of the NONCOMBATIVE expressions of capoeira too. That is NOT by accident. Capoeira being wholly linked to the African soul and the African practice of seamless holistic expression, one CANNOT extract the combative practice and warrior soul from capoeira practice WITHOUT ALSO WEAKENING everything esle in capoeira. The music, the dance, the energia of the roda, the soul, the songs, the joy, the malandragem, the history, the spirituality and religion, the literal soul of capoeira is weakened and compromised if the Capoeira Warrior isn't there. The "true" capoeirista is ever bit as much WARRIOR as ARTIST, SCHOLAR as SCOUNDREL, SPIRITUALIST as PHILOSOPHER, SCIENTIST as THEOLOGIAN. If the capoeirista is a flesh and blood incarnation of capoeira, and if capoeira is life...then we need the Caooeira Warrior to protect the life of the capoeirista so that the soul of capoeira may continue to live, grow, thrive, and resonate.

Hey Coach Ras,

I respect what you're doing - I'm not sure why you want to call it all capoeira however - it could equally be under the banner of JKD for example.

I know you say these techniques are all part of capoeira, a kick is a kick, an eye gouge is an eye gouge. Anything goes.

I think you sought the truth, and have found it, and are trying to spread it. However - it's not the truth. It's your truth. IMO :)

For me, one of the key elements of capoeira is 'play' - this doesn't have to mean non-combative, but is about understanding your and your opponents movements, your space around you, weaknesses, trying to force situations, getting out of situations, getting into and out of danger and putting your partner in danger, setting up, making traps, hiding powerful kicks, headbutts etc. Through this play is where i think a lot of capoeira's effectiveness is developed, the ginga is developed. I don't see you mentioning this sort of thing.

Training self defense stuff, in my experience is about ending the fight, repeatedly training attacks and defenses, I have no doubt that techniques in capoeira are effective in self defense. However, this type of thing looks more from the eastern MAs and looks to be turning capoeira into something else. Training instructors to fight other instructors and martial artists (under some rules) seems to be like turning it into a sport.

It's funny to see the angola people quiet here - comments are made about M Bimba 'adding' stuff, but perhaps cos you keep saying WARRIOR, it's keeping them happy.

Just some thoughts from a non-combative.

x

My friend Lever....

...you are correct in that my expression of capoeira can be fit under the banner of JKD...but studying JKD is not how I came about my expression of capoeira. Imo any martial art can be more comprehensively expressed, depending upon the practitioner. So you're right...ATACX GYM CAPOEIRA is...ATACX GYM CAPOEIRA. It's base expression is drawn from my thoughts, my practices, and my family's martial lineage. But I think that the distinctly capoeira movements brand ATACXGYMCAPOEIRA as distinctly my brand, my style, of capoeira. And I think it's every bit as authentic in its expression as any other...although nowhere near as storied in its lineage or as ancient as many others are.

Insofar as "play" is concerned? That's perfectly fine with me. Play all you like. I have mentioned several times--and have mentioned at length in my previous post on this thread--that I'm not talking about SUBTRACTING anything from the general capoeira practice. We have many varied different styles of play in the roda, and even when sparring and practicing self-defense. What I'm talking about is making central to capoeira's practice her absolutely indispensable warrior lineage; her original, unstoppable unquenchable, unequaled warrior skill which is the heart and soul, the vital core of capoeira which makes it possible for her to be EVERYTHING THAT SHE IS.

What I'm talking about is making capoeira whole again by returning her warrior skills to their rightful front and center role. Her warrior skills, as you recall and should know, are the source font root and creator of literally any and every form of play that capoeira has. So I will never have a problem with capoeira's style of play. I have a problem with any proposition that removes capoeira's warrior skills for any reason, under any pretext, and tries to justify it by speaking in the name of capoeira...when we know that capoeira was first and foremost a warrior's discipline before anything else. Mestre Pastinha and Mestre Bimba frequently spoke of rodas where the games and style of rodas were rigorous and energetic; " a roda for men" or a "game for men". Mestre Bimba has spoken of capoeiristas who used guns and knives along with their Regional and Angola. He also spoke of using his Capoeira Regional with and against malandros armed with guns and knives. Do you think that either of these illustrious Mestres or any of their adherents lacked the less combative skills in various styles of play in the "roda"? Of course you don't, my friend. Well...I am speaking of the same thing. Simply modernizing the context, training methods, attacks defenses weapons, etc. That incudes making the style of play in the roda--the music, the noncombative AND combative expressions--better by using our own ingenuity and modern sciences and technology...to both express the warrior's capoeira rooted in history and make better music, keep and enrich her deep spirituality, have more fun, more unique styles of play and dance, and spread capoeira all the more.

 I think you may be missing my point. As Lever said we all have our own truths, I find your suggestion that capoeira should be purely martial echoes my thoughts for the first 2 years, then I began to understand the whole of the art a little better. If you just want combat, mate there are 100s of better systems out there!, Because essentially combat is finish your opponent as quickly as possible, does an inverted kick do that? maybe IF you get the timing right. How about a straight kick to the knee, pretty much always. I trained in a mixedmartial art system that did just that a few years ago, short direct strikes. they were fast and generally with very little experience you could consistently get them on target. After 1 year training that system I sparred a blackbelt TWD girl and ran circles round her. I am not an amazing athlete. but I had a system designed for the job. When I started sparring with capoeristas when I was learning capoeira the old instincts were all there. I kicked people dropping into esquivas,people stepping in to do a meia lua, bencoed people in ginga, marteloed people (a lot) in the arm or chest. If you meet someone primed like I was and do an inverted kick they Will kick you in the head I promise you.

The skill in capoeira, the thing that makes it beautiful is that no-one takes the obvious strikes the harder it is to strike the bigger the impact when you manage it. It is a martial Game.  Make it a competition, Take the game away, an as lever said its JKD or wushu, I agree it has a warrior heart but it is not a battlefield art.

First to clear one thing up, I'm not american, the alligance pledge means very little to me, but the last post ringing out across a small churchyard played by an old guy in an army uniform that hangs off their old body, with a church half hidden in dusk behind them and the words `They shall not grow old as we that are left grow old, Age shall not wither them nor the years condem' does. Despite these words battle is brutal and lacks glory. Is this something to persue? I understand what you're saying about the martial side of things that it shouldn't be missed out. I agree  an I knowthe story of paranaue, but I think if you say capoeira must be martial and applicable above all things you will loose the beauty. people will go for the easy strikes an the art will be lost, you seen any combat capo competion vids? the technique is generally scruffy compared to say MMA. If the martial becomes paramount I reckon there will be no answer to the question `why have the roda, the bateria, what has this got to do with a martial art? ' the history and particulary music may well be pushed out, seen as a brief addition to capoeira (as it hasn't always existed with it) . It wouldn't happen over night but gradually over say the next 20 years. I don't know what you'd be left with, hopefully not just another art for meatheads to batter each other but quiet possibly.

You make very good points about miming football (sorry soccer) instead of doing it. An it is something that I have thought of a few times, its easier to make the technique look correct if you know how to apply it. But I think the total agresive swing to a martial way of teaching above all else an the suggestion everyone else is wrong and should bow to your beliefs which are presented with an almost religous fevour  is not the answer.

ATAXGYMCAPOEIRA Interestingly from the horses mouth heres a clip that suggests some mestres may be reticent about embracing your martial tradition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzoIoyk-wiU&feature=share

mestre joao grande talking at 3.44 is particulary interesting

Nice video.  I like what it says at 3:04 and I also like what M. Cobra Mansa says at 3:24.  It really is a mixed soup :)

My friend lennon,

Mestre doesn't contradict anything I've said. In fact? Mestre and the other mestres confirm virtually everything that I've said. I remember being taught of Ogun when I was a child. Ogun is a God of strength, iron, fire...oftentimes associated with war and unbreakable determination, powerful aggression as well. Capoeira has African roots and has much more obvious sparring skills which predate the invention of the ginga. The old black and white video in the clip you provided was very important in proving this point. The opening clip with the escaping slaves, who--when cornered--fought their attackers with capoeira movements kicks esquivas, etc. Not a single noncombative ginga to be seen.

The clips show that capoeira was developed for combat and used for combat and self defense against the worst kinds of odds since the days of Brazilian slavery. Exactly like I said. If anything, these mestres of the old skool thoroughly confirmed and corroborated virtually my every word. This should not be a surprise, as I learned most of what I know from my elders who learned it from their elders who learned it from masters older than the Mestres in the videos. Our lineage stretches directly back to the capoeira of antiquity that I spoke of, as compared to the capoeira of today...which is almost completely without the fighting skillz of the past.

Dang this joint is still going on...?

Brother Ras...I must say you have some tenacity, but I to also say, sorry you also have a "strong personality"...it needs to be malleable

In Ifa...Ogun is a God of war, also the spirit of technology because it is also the God of Iron...oh and wait, Ogun is also the God that clears a pathway*...also etc, etc NON OF THESE CONTRADICT THE OTHER...in the world view of the traditional Yoruba and other west/west central Africans it leaned more towards holism and even pluralism. What does that mean? Capoeira is emerging and will always, this is because the spirit is not bound...you are trying to make people believe it is...paraphrasing here 'Capoeira was based on combat'; well true when the situation called for it...it was also based on vadiar...its like saying copulation is solemnly based on procreation...no not really, if that was true then music would have died out thousands or millions of years ago...music is for different things, the moment creates the feeling...that is a spirit at work. This art is no different...you want to make your capoeira combat, please by all means...but then you have to re-create another vehicle in which to model this on. The current position as of now in this iteration is what 95% of us do, little modification here & there to suit our voracious needs but for the most part we enjoy this.

Remember the three "M"s assuming you believe them...if you don't then by all means carry on till you turn blue. I personally agree with part of your point, however it is personal...I know what I know because I know what I know, I don't know what I know because I do not think of what I do not know...and this is good enough. If I am faced with a combat situation,I hope I have a "cool" head to work away...or I hope I can create the "opportunity" to walk away...if not then I will have to invoke "Deus da guerra"

Yes this is true, but this also means different things to different people as a matter of fact, many use this as an excuse to 'bastardize' the art form...based on this hybrid ideology. Is capoeira an effect due to conditions in Brasil...or is it a response  to it? Yes it is a trick question...but I am very sure people will answer one way or another. Regardless I believe it is a continuum, there is a common thread within the African ethnic groups we know that inhabited the pre-republic...there were/are many West African artform/dances (defunct or living) that could have shaped capoeira, so who knows...

In any event, it simply shows me at best we know nothings, at worst few understand agility of certain forms...say water!?!?

 Ras, is your lineage exclusively a (blood) family one, if you're basing your views on a combative capoeira lineage (rather than your personal opinion and experience, which it seemed to be from your early posts) , please tell us a bit more about it, which area of brazil is it from? an what does this'combat ginga' you keep telling us about look like? can you do a vid of yourself doing it, your vids so far seem to be mainly move sequences. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely interested.

p.S: with respect to him those who train with him Can anyone be older than mestre joao grande and actively involved in capoeira?!. If you mean lineage wise, I suspect he doesn't exist in a vacum and had a mestre before him

Do you think any of these Mestres sacrificed fighting skill for any other aspect or facet of capoeira? Or do you think that capoeira should and could maintain a holistic synergy of music, spirituality, community, street smarts, fighting skill, community, history, physical fitness, and more...

http://capoeira-connection.com/capoeira/2011/10/who-was-mestre-pastinha/

And Mestre Bimba made it a point to "challenge and beat all the tough guys..."

http://capoeira-connection.com/capoeira/?s=Mestre+Bimba

Thank you to our sister ShadowCat aka Shayna from Capoeira-Connection.com. Btw Shayna...do you know that ShadowCat is the name of a X-Man? Kitty Pride is her real name, and she's been part and parcel of some of the greatest stories in X-Man history. And she's developed a daughter and later a sister like relationship with one of my favorite X-Men, STORM...who is also wife to the mighty African Super Genius-Mystic-Hi Tech MegaGenius-Dazzling Warrior-King of Wakanda named T'Challa The Black Panther.

Yes. I'm a geek. Proud of it, too.

Brother Ras says:

Brother Ras, to me "Bastardization" follows the idea that capoeira is hybridized and therefore a veil is used to cover the fact that other martial forms i.e "eastern" were covertly added to the art...with that came a lot of misunderstanding...a lot, but I bare no ills...as long as this can be acknowledged. IMO Respeito e communidade can easily become vapor due to the difficulty in aligning communal ideas with reality. Vale tudo has no place in capoeira period...assuming you can grapple me and put me down safely...oh wait there is also punches, then what? why don't we just call it something else right? Why are we playing capoeira and it is the bystanders separating us? to the point where bystanders are seriously getting hurt? I am not saying it is because people do combat capoeira that this happens, (it is obviously something within the *human being...but that is another thing) I am sure it has happened several times over before capoeira became as codified.

Herein is the issue...if we are fighting (in its purest form) then lets simply call it something else, this guise that it is capoeira is by no means a reflection of malicia, but another paradigm of what I call double standards...which is absolutely not in alignment with the three M's. Iterating the last point here; Double standards is living I get that and therefore we see this mirrored in capoeira, it is however not the same as the tradition of malicia...

This comment was not directed at you but more of a general response...

Awh shucks I had a wonderful response but I guess it was not meant to be posted...

but I will disagree just a tard bit; capoeira is deceptfully and counter-intuitively difficult to practice...even the 95% who practice it for the sake of its martial qualities all they have to do is dedicate enough time and hone the indirect benefits. Sorry fighter are born...there is an energy fighters just innately have; of course you can train this aspect but it is different from how certain people are able to see the world...look at those who draw or play music by just picking up an instrument...

No matter how much jiu-jistu one learns it does not make one efficient, effective maybe but so is gorging an eye out or kicking one in the crunch...capoeira is simply NOT technique, it is looking at the world the way it is and not what one wants it to be. Anyways in the west, the three M's are not really engaged...why? it is the west...you go straight to the issue, why go around? right? Mandinga does not exist...it is only experience, right? Malicia is for whimps..."I takes what I wants"...lol right...so yes I agree with that, however it does not mean the other world view is not effective either; many people hone their techniques and are known for been technical players...it is just tooo simple, how many times can one person apply this before "the magic" is stolen from under ones feet?

There is a game in Yoruba land called Ayo...same as mancala board games; simple game, but it teaches many things amongst them strategy...but to the layman it is simply a board game. So capoeira is no different...

"Awh shucks I had a wonderful response but I guess it was not meant to be posted...

but I will disagree just a tard bit; capoeira is deceptfully and counter-intuitively difficult to practice...even the 95% who practice it for the sake of its martial qualities all they have to do is dedicate enough time and hone the indirect benefits. Sorry fighter are born...there is an energy fighters just innately have; of course you can train this aspect but it is different from how certain people are able to see the world...look at those who draw or play music by just picking up an instrument...

No matter how much jiu-jistu one learns it does not make one efficient, effective maybe but so is gorging an eye out or kicking one in the crunch...capoeira is simply NOT technique, it is looking at the world the way it is and not what one wants it to be. Anyways in the west, the three M's are not really engaged...why? it is the west...you go straight to the issue, why go around? right? Mandinga does not exist...it is only experience, right? Malicia is for whimps..."I takes what I wants"...lol right...so yes I agree with that, however it does not mean the other world view is not effective either; many people hone their techniques and are known for been technical players...it is just tooo simple, how many times can one person apply this before "the magic" is stolen from under ones feet?"

My Brother Edojudu...

...I respect the 3 M's. Inclusive of the magic of malandragem. But I point blank ask you my Brother...do you think that any of the legendary Mestres ranging from Ganga Za to Mestre Acordeon have underdeveloped fighting skills? Honestly. And do you think that any of the fighting mestres lack any of the three M's in any way?

I respect your opinion about jiu jitsu not being efficient...but I also respectfully disagree.  I practice bjj and I think it's very efficient AND effective. I also think that capoeira has many movements similar to bjj and bjj owes almost 100% of its flowing movements, its ground transitions, its animal movements and drills etc. to capoeira's massive influence upon it. I might remind you that African grappling forms like Laamb predate brazilian jiujitsu and are clearly parts of capoeira's paradigm. I for one see nothing wrong with refining and adding on to capoeira's submission locking arsenal. Capoeira already has those holds anyway...along with the methods you suggested: gouging eyes and kicking groins.

But keep your opinion however you wish to keep it being. I mean no disrespect to however you play capoeira. And although we seem to differ about bjj? Ultimately I would say that this is a small thing. We agree in far more compelling matters, I would say.

I am saying that capoeira is and should be practiced and seen as a formidable fighting method IN ADDITION to all else it offers. Life is also a battle, my friend. Life is joy and struggle and pain and heartbreak and failure and much more. Capoeira is life and life is capoeira...but capoeira has songs of the malandro for a reason. Capoeira has fostered capoeirista warriors of such potent skill that the empire of Brazil entered negotiations with Ganga Za's quilombo for a reason. Do you think Besouro couldn't fight? Do you think he lacked any of the 3 M's?

And the reason that capoeira isn't known for its ferocious fighting skill is akin to the reason that China's demonstration wushu is both roundly praised held in reverence for and decried for its beautiful decorative athletic acrobatic fluid flexible movements...even as most of the world doesn't know that wushu has a formidable fighting arm called sanda/san shou. Capoeira needs to reunite her warrior soul with the rest of her, or she will perish. We cannot allow the FULL EXPRESSION of capoeira--which includes the warrior skills which literally allowed her to exist and survive up to the current day in the first place--to perish. If the warriors of capoeira pass? So does capoeira. Our enemies know this and energetically wish the destruction of true, historically vibrant yet modern and growing capoeira. The capoeirista who can compose songs on the berimbau and modern musical instruments about life, and songs ranging from Ganga Za to Anderson Aranha Silva, and still fully embrace everything from the 3 M's to the internet? From the rua to the university? The capoeirista who is as much educator as malandro, warrior as teacher, philosopher as spiritualist, scientist and sorceror...it is THAT capoeirista that we need today. Given the massive amount of information at our fingertips and our ability to instantly interact with people all the way across the world? We have no excuse for not doing such a thing.

To make it clear: I'm not saying that capoeira is ONLY a fighting expression ofte spirit. I'm saying that one can't have a whole spirit if one isn't a warrior. We had to fight to be born. We fight in some way shape or form every day of our lives. And we'll fight death until at some time we win that battle and our spirits ascend to our reward and other form of existence.

There is a game in Yoruba land called Ayo...same as mancala board games; simple game, but it teaches many things amongst them strategy...but to the layman it is simply a board game. So capoeira is no different...

Senhor Ras-

I dont feel you need to lay out your family history, origins or anything like that to legitimize what you speak of.  Mestre Roque is a capable person who has the insight to let you grow, but also guide you along with his philosophy, nao?

I find some of the comments directed at you hypocritical, and the lack of comments from some more outspoken esoteric people notable as well.   I also feel that you have MORE than explained that you embrace all flavors of a game, but in the end you regard it as a martial art.  Nothing wrong with that man.

Is the story remarkable?? not to me really.. anyone who consistently trains will have an edge over the common man right?  While walking i avoided getting smashed into my car, by car of 4 drunk gang bangers, and then I proceeded to stomp the driver out and keep away from his three friends.   That night they ran into me, Inst. Sarara, Prof. ligeirinho, and Inst.Bamba after hearing of this, my Mestra  chuckled at the story and said.. man they had no idea..

Again, i would say to you that theres a few *tournaments* that happen thru the year (Mestre Demetrius' comes to mind) that you can find what your looking for, and its open to all groups.  Go kick some fucking ass and put Mestre on the map!  I think Marcos Paraiba won last year.

"Senhor Ras-

I dont feel you need to lay out your family history, origins or anything like that to legitimize what you speak of.  Mestre Roque is a capable person who has the insight to let you grow, but also guide you along with his philosophy, nao?

I find some of the comments directed at you hypocritical, and the lack of comments from some more outspoken esoteric people notable as well.   I also feel that you have MORE than explained that you embrace all flavors of a game, but in the end you regard it as a martial art.  Nothing wrong with that man.

Is the story remarkable?? not to me really.. anyone who consistently trains will have an edge over the common man right?  While walking i avoided getting smashed into my car, by car of 4 drunk gang bangers, and then I proceeded to stomp the driver out and keep away from his three friends.   That night they ran into me, Inst. Sarara, Prof. ligeirinho, and Inst.Bamba after hearing of this, my Mestra  chuckled at the story and said.. man they had no idea..

Again, i would say to you that theres a few *tournaments* that happen thru the year (Mestre Demetrius' comes to mind) that you can find what your looking for, and its open to all groups.  Go kick some fucking ass and put Mestre on the map!  I think Marcos Paraiba won last year."

I loooove this guy Manhoso!! Lolol. Thank you for the information my Brother!

And yes, Mestre Roque is MORE THAN CAPABLE. You are right. And yes he guides me with his philosophy, his wisdom, his refinements of my game.

I don't know enough about the people of this site to note the absence of the more outspoken esoteric people. Who are they? I hope they return and get more vocal. I think I would very much like to discuss matters with them.

LOLOLOLOLOL!! I love that story about you guys stomping the living crap outta four gangbangers! Oh man, I wish you guys had recorded it and put it on youtube! that would go viral. I don't think that there is any real video of a genune capoeira streeetfight, wherein capoeiristas fight other NONcapoeiristas for real.

And yeah I absolutely agree that a trained martial artist in ANY art should hve a distinct advantage over nontrained people.

But now I'm very interested in these tournaments you're talking about. WHAT tournies are you talking about? Who's Mestre Demetrius? Man. I am MOST DEFINITELY interested. I very much think that I will go and put Mestre Roque on the map. Whatever details you have? Please share.

Manhoso : Hey steady there, I meant no offence and didn't mean to challenge ras for an explanation of his origins, My apologies to him if it seemed tht way. He implied that his teaching came from a line seperate from other capoeira lineages, thinking along the lesser known lineages of bahian street capoeira I was curious if this was a `family capoeira' line which might have more direct information about early( pre mstr bimba and pastinha) versions of capoeira than current lineages. It appears he belongs to a current one but has family links via his uncles (being researched). So it doesn't sound like a clearly direct line or trad, just clarifying for myself. An in relation to hypocritical Ras argues at some points the martial is part of the whole picture but at others that all mestres should be forced to teach combat capoeira as if not it isn't Real capoeira. Sounds pretty radical to me an to be honest a tad arrogant. Don't think anyone needs force their philosophies on the rest of the world, we all have our personal truths, not nessacerily extrapolating to others. I'm a veggie due to ethical reasons, don't give a damn what anyone else does though, their decisions are their own to make. An yes like ras it galls me when people deny their scource of meat or try not to think about it, like doing a technique you don't know how to complete, the mimening soccer analogy he used; but I don't preach at them, they want to deny stuff, whatever, I'm sure I do the same in other aspects of life. 

Manhoso is right.  Stick with Mestre Roque.  He'll show you the way.  You are very fortunate to learn under such a great Mestre.

Hello friends!!

I will answer these posts shortly. Right now I have to train and things. I hope all of you are doing well and I hope to holla at everyone soon!

 Ok I got this quote messed up and I7m late in the conversation.  Just watned to answer

#1 I feel this is how Mestre No has always taught and promoted Capoeira and the life of a Capoeirista- to be sound in our actions inside the roda and without, with self defence in mind- safety in mind.  Its always been at the forefront of my own Capoeira studies.  Also thought Mestre No speaks of how Capoeira today many people do not look at Capoeira as a philosophy or lifestyle, its something they do in their freetime.  They go into the roda and afterward go to a bar and get drunk wtih their back to the door.  For Mestre No the Capoeirista keeps his back to the wall and his eyes open at all times.  All in the mood of what you are talking about here.  So in other words I agree...  I think this awareness etc. though goes beyond combat and combat training.

#2  This still happens today in many Capoeira lineages.  I've seen the training conducted first hand.

#3  I do not think that most masters today are offended by the freedom of their children, by the enthusiasm and love of their art in the world.  This isn't an excuse.  Capoeira has so much and whenever any person in the world continues, enjoys and continues that aspect of the art I think it makes them smile.  If a Capoeira master sees his nephew play the berimbau and just do so so beautifully, or his neice doing floreiros or messing around doing acrobatics.  I think it warms his heart.  It would not, IMO, insult him if they can't or don't fight.  This I suppose is where we disagree.  Any Capoeira warrior alive today has the choice to teach what he can and knows to the people around him, to continue the art.  Any warrior of the past has taught what he taught, asked what he has asked of his own students and his time has passed.  There is no regret, to me, in this.  It is what it is.

I've got a lot of video/seen a lot of video of older Capoeira street rodas.  One in particular I think is on youtube somewhere of two masters in a street roda (elders) where the evolves into a very beatiful exchange of elbows and knees where you can see very clear the effectiveness/applications of the ginga as is...without being blended into karate or TKD.  I couldn't find it on youtube so it may only be distributed on disk...its a streetroda in salvador from about 20 years ago.  There is a lot more combat to the traditional Capoeira roda and ginga than people realize~ and it was designed that way intentionally.  Danger NOT violence.  I agree with a lot you say, but sometimes it sounds like you are promoting more practice of violence than danger in the open space, in the roda etc.  For me, the 'street' applications are discussed and trained inhouse with master and trusted friends, the roda is a place of relative peace where the danger lies under the surface and violence is not needed.   WHile Capoeira may often not be trained with much fundamentals for combat today, it is also more violent than ever before.  violence is easy to understand but that doesn't make it more realistic or effective IMO. 

@Coach Ras

yes I am underestanding your position more and more each bit. 

About recognition of Capoeira history.  I live in Japan and interact in Japanese here with a lot of people.  Very often I will encounter students of Capoeira, and speak about Zumbi or Besouro and get a blank look huh?  These are new students.  Sometimes its my own students!!  naturally I make a point to share with them as much as I know, and I know very little actually myself, ever the hungry student to learn more about Capoeira history and historical figures in Capoeiras history, Brazil's history etc... So much context. 

 It takes time for people to integrate all these stories, along with all that they are learning, langauge, music, instruments...its ALL foreign to them.  Its a lot to digest.   Not knowing about Capoeira's history doesn't mean they don't care or want to know.  The language gap is another big peice of this issue.  You can teach people movements and music without words.  To tell people the stories of Capoeiras history, you need a common language.  In English today though lots of this information is available...japaense is coming along and its a lot of work, mostly volunteers to translate and distribute everything.

Consider with boxing people might know American boxing legends.  Do they know of British, Indian, Scottish, Irish etc. boxing legends?  Capoeira comes from a foreign culture.  I think you'll find that Brazilian Capoeiras are very very familiar with all the names that appear in teh songs they sing...since they speak Portuguese pretty easy for them to work it out!!!

In my Capoeira encounters with students etc.  from other schools  I really come off as a hardass when I tell people 'you need to study Capoeiras history' 'You need to learn Portuguese' etc.  Its not a popular position to go to overboard about.

Since you have this also in your family, its extra important for you that Capoeira be practiced with knowledge and respect of its history, I respect your position on this.  Lots of people are working very hard all over the world to help spread deeper understanding of Capoeira.  Its only natural though that the flashier easier to understand and teach aspects spread first.