I know this is rarely talk about in here so I probably have my work cut out I was with my brother in arms discussing the connection of capoeira, candomble and other orisha traditions. Everyone who plays capoeira plays from a different point; some people is just vadiar, some sport/hobby etc...then there are those who look for spiritual meaning. I am not Candomble but have been around other orisha traditions and really enjoy this point of view.

Here are my questions...

Since a lot of this stuff is personal; I will ask the questions a little different. I know of two orishas that preside over the roda; however I learned there are more once the space is opened. What are folks view of this and how does it apply to their game?

The different "styles" or philosophy of movements are usually discernable, down to the bateria; does this make a difference to the orishas?

The orisha traditions use the words "possessed" a lot...is a possession possible in the roda de capoeira?

I agree there seems to be a universal energy to candomble esque energy(I have only been involved in a song workshop rather than any ceromonies I don't think there are any ceremonies in the uk or if there are they are very very exclusive) raising and capoeira rodas; although one that I have never found discussed in contemporary circles; an my original questions on the subject were very quickly brushed off, I understood quiet fast that to discuss this sort of thing was if not taboo very close to it. In relation to possesion I have seen 2 contramestres in 3 years carrying something extra behind the eyes, one however was very strongly christian the other I suspect practices candomble. What does that mean? Maybe the energy in a good roda can be used by people to add to their own energy and if that energy has a definate shape attached to their religion it shows through, like a shadow puppet show, the puppets behind the screen are indistinct until there is a light behind them. I don't think it is possible to be possessed in a capoeira roda as I believe each orisha has their own rhythm (I think). Also in candomble isn't it the case that until initiated when people are chosen they just stagger about a bit and fall over... now this is my favourite way of playing capoeira but I must say i have never felt possessed. When the orisha do possess people/people believe they are possessed they don't seem to be terribly good at controling their horses from the way they dance. There are the other lot though, like Exu, the messangers between the orixa and humans who I have read when possesing can move about an converse normally with humans though their host remembers nothing. The only thing that directly springs to mind is that I have also read an account of the other 3rd type of possessing spirits, the child like spirits, playing capoeira in the bodies they possessed. However overall from a theoretical rather than directly expereinced viewpoint I think there are more things against the premise than for it.

My personal views...first I think that capoeira is a mixed stew.  Slavery forced people from different parts of Africa to be together.  They didn't stop being yoruba, fon, bantu, etc just because they came across the ocean on a boat.  Their religions were still a part of their lives.  As capoeira developed from this mixed soup, people probably called on whatever spiritual systems they practiced.  So in the roda they probably brought their religions with them just as someone might bring christianity in the roda with them today.  Capoeira has always been a mixed soup.

I have practiced Ifa (one of the root religions of Candomble) for over 6 years now.  I have heard that there are a few Orisa's that rule the roda de capoeira, but my personal opinion is different.  The truth is that we ALL use ALL of the energy of ALL of the Orisa.  So all of the energy of all of the Orisa already exist in the roda.  To only wear amulets or beads relating to your guardian is limiting.  I wear amulets or beads to the energy that I am trying to connect with at that point.  I wore an amulet to my guardian in the roda once and only once.  I felt too much of my own energy (kind of felt spun out).  Although sometimes I ask my guardian to protect me while in the roda (as my guardian is one of the protective energies).

In the USA, it makes sense to play down the role of the Orixa in capoeira, because the US is largely protestant and there is still a lot of bad attitudes and even blatant discrimination about African traditional or diasporic religions (as well as other religions).

"Three Spiritual Entities in the Roda

Besouro, Manduca, and Nascimento Grande are the three fearless "Braves" who lived som one hundred years ago. Bimba and Pastinha are the most famous capoeira mestres, who died in 1974 and 1981, respectively. Beyond the Valente (The Fearless Brave) and the Malandro (the street-smart guy), we also have Ogum and Oxossi, the warrior god of battles and the hunter god of forests.

But still one last spiritual entity is missing, besides Ogum and Oxossi, to complete the trio that "lives" in the Imaginary Realm of Capoeira.

To accompany Ogum and Oxossi we should look for somebody with such features as:

x The sensual taste for life and the joy of living (which we find in the roda through the stimulating berimbau rhythms, the singing, the hand clapping, and the players' sinuous, catlike movements);

x The knowledge and acceptance of all parts of human nature, bright or dark, without moral judgement (capoeira's cult of courage and brotherhood and also the cult of falseness and treason);

x no respect whatsoever for social laws, moral rules, and conventions (the preference for the treacherous navalha, the barber's straight razor, which "best adapted itself to their fighting system" because it could be easily concealed and used unexpectedly, as Jair Moura taught us).

To a certain extent the Malandro has these "qualities" but there is still a missing element of Power (capoeira's power, allowing it to expand throughout the world). Because the Malandro moves so freely and is so flexible due to his lack of power, he carries no "weight" with him.

It is in the Pombagira, the female version of Exu that we will find what we are searching for. But who is Exu?

Exu is an orixa, a form of energy (ori=head, xa=strength, energy). Similar to electric or atomic energy, he has to be treated in certain ways. If not (whether on purpose or through ignorance) he can be extremely chaotic and destructive.

The orixas (gods) live in the ile (spiritual world). But the ile is far away from the aie (the world of men), and so a messenger between men and gods is needed.

The messenger, Exu is the oldest of the all (although there is a debate between Exu and Oxala concerning who is the oldest). He is also "the first one to eat" when offerings are made in ceremonies. And above all, he owns and distributes the axe, cosmic energy that permeates all things and beings, which he carries inside a calabash.

Exu is unpredictable, chaotic and amoral, doing good and evil without differentiating between the two.

He is also the private protector of houses, cities, and human beings. Each one of us has his private Exu, similar to a spiritual bodyguard.

He owns the crossroads, a place where the road shows many options, a place for making decisions. Especially those where three roads meet. He is also associated with sexual energy. His symbol is the three-pronged fork, his colors are black and red, hiss drink is the powerful cachaca distilled from sugarcane. For these and other reasons he was wrongly compared to the Devil by Catholic priests and others who persecuted candomble.

Exu presents himself in either the male or female form. In the feminine form she is called Pombagira...the Pombagira with her vital and sensuous laugh..."
Roots of the Dance-Fight-Game by Mestre Nestor Capoeira pages 57-59

The story continues, but I'll cut it off there. Sorry about any typos.

I also look at Oxossi's energy in the roda from a different perspective than a lot of people in capoeira might.  Osossi is the energy that has to do with success (hitting targets) as well as communication (hmm capoeira as a form of communication), although Osossi's energy particularly deals with long distance communication and telepathy, maybe it can also be applied to the communication in the roda.

oi espanta,

I agree with your post,  well said!

AXE!

Thanks for your response Lennon, unfortunately i don't know too much about candomble, however to me if Orishas are energy (lack of better term) then I can see a possession happening in capoeira; just based on its inherent setup. Music, with drums and strings, then there are the people around who form the roda. The possessions are more unique like those on the continent where there is seldom "rage". Maybe I am wrong, possession back home seem subtle than when I have encountered them out here, but then again one can argue the bad capoeira are people who are been mounted; because their respective Ori (another orisha) is not centered.

I have seen that look you are referring to which is why I am interested in people's views.

Espantalho1 thank you very much for taking the time to express your view, I enjoyed reading it. We can take this to PM if you choose to; yes I was talking to my Brother and he revealed to me he also thinks eshu presides over the roda; candomble actually will say the feminine principle actually presides once the roda is opened. Still not sure about that although capoeira is survival and at its heart is malicia...all eshu's aspects. Now once the festivities commences, the Ori of participants direct divinities into the roda at least I have been able to understand the main seven. You are right it is a mistake to lock capoeira into the jogo itself as the jogo continues even after we salute out...this is why I enjoy the esoteric part of capoeira.

thanks again for you insights I wish more people will come in and give if any thing general thoughts!?!?!?

You can PM me if you like.

I also think Xango's energy makes a lot of sense for the roda.  The energy of strategy ;)

I had a conversation about Orishas with a very advanced student(who also teaches us 2 days per week ) and a girl who claims that seeing "ghosts" isn't new to her.The conversation later was about Orishas and how they affect the roda.It was referred that suposedly Orishas posses you and play capoeira using your body.Furthermore back at August we were in a international encontro and an incident was referred.Some of the Mestres(especially the brazilians)were disciples of cancomble,and at some time while they were giving classes in a big open area they stood still and looked behind the students while doing the cross(i mean head-chest-hand-hand i dunno how is it called in english,but i dont mean crossing their fingers like children xD ).

i forgot to mention that the conversation started about a ghost in the place were we train.Both the girl and the student/instructor said they saw a weird entity like a shadow while we were there and furthermore there was a student of the group that used to live for a couple of months in the "dojo" and he claimed he felt something staring at him and then it wouldnt let him stand up from the place he was.The girl mentioned she heared a woman singing before months(without being there) and she didnt felt she was good(not exactly evil but not good...).

After referring to the incidents i have to state that i'm not religious(i'm 24 and a half and i'm atheist since 17)and that i have mixed views about ATIA,ghosts etc-i believe they might exist but i never seen or felt one so to believe .Plus i also believe that soul or spirit could even be things that are scientifically explained but in the future,who knows...),my friend/instructor in a musleem and the girl is christian orthodox i think(like i used to be).My friend seemed like believing the existance of Orishas although he is musleem,maybe not in the traditional way but i think deep down he believes they exist in some way.

So my questions are: 1)do you believe in the existance of Orishas?

2) If 1)=yes then: do you believe they are as the tradition says or in a different ways? i.e i believe energy in a small room  whether is from human beings,beliefs or movements maybe can react with matter like an intense gravity in a spot can(meaning that maybe that energy or Orisha can  either be from  "ethereal" or "real" plane but without being gods or ghosts,it could be either something science hasnt found yet or something "spiritual".)

3)you ever seen an Orisha ?either cause it was just there or coming from a trick of mind.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but it sounds like you might be mixing up the ideas of orisa energies with ancestral energies or maybe other spiritual energies.  From my experience, the orisa are not "ghosts".

As Espantalho mentioned, there are different types of energies in the roda. Whether or not you want to link those to the orixas is up to you; I simply see them as different aspects of human personality and interactions.

There's a difference between being "in the zone" when you're in the roda - totally grooving to the rhythm, feeling the energy of the group, and playing really well (or really aggressively, whatever floats your boat) - and being possessed. In a real possession, as Lennon alluded to, the person truly does NOT have control of their own body, nor do they remember anything that happened while they were possessed.

Also, even among practitioners of candomble, not everyone can "receive" (i.e. be possessed by) an orixa. Some people have this facility and others do not.

I have always been taught and I believe that Obatala is in charge of Capoeira.  Having said that, I have not heard of "Orisha's" coming and possessing in the Roda.  If possession is to occur, it does not come from Orishas, the possession comes by way of those Angoleiros who watch over the Rodas.  If the environment is right; if the music is right; if the energy is right and if the players are right; it is said, in our tradition, that the ancestors are attracted to the Roda. But they are not attracted to just any Roda, the environment has to be right.  Remember, the Berimbau was an instrument that was used in African Religion.  It is an instrument that was used to call the spirits in parts of Africa.  So, yes, I believe that it is possible for divination/possession to occur in the Roda.

"I simply see them as different aspects of human personality and interactions."

I like this, because to me this is actually very much what the orisa are.

@ Rioquamyhe, as already expressed by others; Orishas are not ghost and in actuality neither are they entities in a figurative sense. You are an Atheist, so I will take a different approach to your question. It is actually documented that when the Spanish reached the shores of the Americas, the natives only saw the ships bows; meaning the waves the ships make at the front end. They could not see the ship because nothing in their own culture or even existence prepared them to understand what an armada will look like. Whether this is myth or not, as humans there are some things we CANNOT & never fathom, however the mind will give its best impressions to remove dissonance. So are there ghosts then? and when you have an answer kindly think about this; is a rainbow real?

@Shadowcat, I find your point intriguing. My older Brother has said to me, when you are not thinking of negativa, role, when you are not thinking of setting traps, when you are simply just moving without any forethought then you have "struck", are possessed. hmmmn Aruanda can exist for some indeed! thanks

@PGCA, thank you. Obatala is definitely in charge of capoeira, so while I was trying to minimize the original thread you just opened a whole other issue lol This is why Capoeira is very complicated at least for those who choose to look into the soul of capoeira; Orisha Obatala is the deity to clarity and so presides over the metaphoric head or consciousness. So if you define capoeira as life itself then it will stand to reason that orisanla has some connection one way or the other.

Obatala is king of the orisa.  Clarity is king ;)

First of all the Orisha are very complex!

* They are forces of Nature, just as their forces within the Human psyche...these forces in the Human psyche is our own way to take the complexities and simplify them by given it categories, values, laws and principles...and from the West African perspective it is NOT linear, but rather polyvalent!

Having said this, Orisha can very well be a "ghost" (anthropomorphic) to you as it is the pure energy of the Hurricane for another, the true understanding comes from been able to discern the underlying theme. No single Orisha can preside over Capoeira, however based on ones level of understanding it may very well be so...remember for some Capoeira is a mirror of life itself...while some it is simply to pass time, this in itself has different connotations.

In a Capoeira Roda; (lets leave it at just the game level) folks say Obatala presides, rightfully so...however one cannot have clarity without knowing the difference between Black or white, right or wrong, left or right etc so then Esu is invoked first. But wait, strategy, will and focus are also needed which are also different aspects.

Possessions are very possible, but it is beyond the scope of this board...I like the idea you and Shadowcat posited, in any event...capoeira is secular :)

not really feeling the whole g-g-g-ghosts thing... especially angoleiro ones.

the roda will organically be what its practitioners make it to be.. ones personality, music, mood,and energy level all have a role.  not hoodoo ghosts, superstitions, xenu and other silly fabrications.

sorry all

There is nothing wrong with what you say, no need to apologize

We can both agree that the human psyche sustains it? I just believe that the equation needs a balance on the other side, not just consumption nothing wrong with that is there?

@Emilios

It the "g-g-g-ghosts thing" is not for  you then so be it...  But if the roda is "organically what its practitioners make it to be" then who are you to say it ain't so?  You just stick with you "practitioners" and do what you do.  Bimba took out all of the African Spirituality from his Capoeira so no one expects you to except African spirituality in Capoeira...

Beleza é nos olhos de quem a vê?

você disse a ele!! tehehe

If there's a ghost in the roda should I call Scooby Doo?

@Jason-

My belief regarding ghosts and other paranoia PREDATES my involvement in capoeira.. Im really not someone who loses who I am in order to become "legit" or accepted within an organization.

IMO Orishas, be they african, cuban or brasilian, and the saints they hide behind, as well as the other religious constructs are a manifestation of your mind.   Since this is a forum where people can exchange ideas.. I threw mine in, as i didnt really see too many DISSENTING opinions.  After all Capoeira is rooted in dissent.

Your snipe about how nobody expects_______ out of me because of Bimba seems a little presumptuous and self righteous of you.  Did you adopt african spirituality when you started training Angola, because Pastinha did? Should I expect every angoliero/angoliera to be a ghost fearing superstitious fuddy duddy?

For the record I also dont endorse posters of naked women in the academy (like bimba had) I also wear shoes (sharp imported ones) in the roda as well.  I almost always wear a shirt, and never roll up my pants.  So there you have it. Im a square peg in a round hole.. or basically a capoeirista.

Toodles

Isso mano..

Bom Manhoso,

Estamos em desacordo com o seu desacordo ;)

I have known your position ever since I came into the forum and we need a position just like yours. I think the only difference is we don't need the "holier than thou" attitude Angoleiros or others add. Your opinion engenders my own passion, just as you have nothing to proof to me, likewise I have nothing to proof to you, it is a forum like you noted afterall. I grew up in West Africa at one point in time religious or spiritual tolerance was very well deep rooted; you do you right?

Anyways without taking this too far into philosophy, I will ask does energy exist or this is as you say "a fabrication of my mind"?

@ Emilios

My "snipe"???  "Presumptuous" and "Self Righteous"???  Your whole original comment was a "Snipe" (attack) and "Self Righteous"...  I have read what you have written in the past regarding this topic.  You are full of "sarcasm" and "snide remarks". And by the way, I did not have to "adopt" African Spiritualism because I was born into it.  All I had to do was accept myself!  What ever your belief system is, no one on here is making fun of it.  I think that it is you, Emilios, who is being Self Righteous when you mock other people's belief system and it is you, Emilios, who is being "Presumptuous" when you assume that just because you don't "feel it", it does not exist.  As Bob Marley once said: "He who feels it, knows it"!

"Bimba took out all of the African Spirituality from his Capoeira so no one expects you to except African spirituality in Capoeira..."

I completely disagree with this statement and don't think that the person making this statement is at all qualified to make such claims although I don't want to get into it, so I'll leave it at that.

If someone has a capoeira name, it is bad form to use their real name on these forums.  So tacky, not classy, etc.  We have nicknames for a reason.  Show some respect.

@ Doug:

OK Doug, what African Spirituality is involved in Regional Capoeira?  Bimba only wanted to focus on the "fight"...  He took out the ladainha, He took out the ceremonial elements which involve the "spirituality"...  Not sure if he took out "volta do mundo"...  What spirituality did Mestre  Bimba leave in Doug?

@ Manhoso,

LOl you obviously don't play Capoeira well I mean seriously can you let me dance while you are also dancing too, the roda is a big space for the both of us don't you think? I think your comment is also self-righteous, whether you think it is dissent is mute...you are a practitioner of the art... I am presuming however isn't the art a figment of a peoples mind? And I am also presuming here also that you are neither Brazilian nor African so what are you really dissenting? your understanding of the art can be for a lack of better words superficial for all we know.

I like contrarians, no I love contrarians because they tend to fall in a camp of understanding the subject matter VERY well and those who dissent for the sake of dissent. Yes Capoeira is rooted in dissent, from an amoral and illegal establishment this is the context...

I don't know you, I cannot shove you into a box; however you seem to have no qualms shoving others into one...we all need to expand our understanding, I am not religious, however I know religiosity has its place and respect it for what it actually is anywayz moving on...

@PGCABrother Jason,

Ase...

@Espantalho1,

This is forum, I am sure you can put your ideas or even attack ideas for that matter...it is just really how you do it...of course, this is just my opinion...in any event, I would think you should be able to disagree to a lot of things here and of course, one chooses when to engage...but you already responded why not show where you think he is not qualified to make such a statement.

From my point of view there is Spiritism in all of capoeira, it is born out of this tradition...it is not the same as religion, religion is analogous to a glove you wear...saying that, before M.Bimba there was Capoeira; when he re-created his there was His capoeira and now what already was in existence before him. To make his palatable to others he made it "look" unlike what was is existence. Now the tradition before his was that..."traditional" and ubiquitous with all that was considered "old, atavistic and archaic"; now you discern what this means contextually 1900 Brasil...overt* spiritualism in his capoeira was not happening period you CAN'T sell this to "brazilians" (*overt meaning MOST if NOT ALL the individuals that practiced the traditional capoeira in Bahia at this time involved the Orisha worhip or its nuances openly). M.Bimba's image of capoeira did not want "sloppiness and inefficiencies"...his version is a martial philosophy anything else was added by his students or apologetics imo.

M.Bimba's objectives was clear as crystal, it does not mean his students or adherents could not be religious or spiritual; his form of capoeira put other things first. "Stripping" will be an extreme word, but not the context of the outcome...it was also said that his students will try to smash heads of those who played closer to the ground, adversarial would you think?...(this is documented)...as a matter of fact, this to me had to be the rise of the conflict many cannot seem to shake even today, hence comments from old time members about scooby doos and warped realities...when in fact, this warped realities they have no issues consuming...

REALLY? you are worried about a nickname lol...hahahahaaha even if people knew you outside this box???

Mestre Bimba used malandragem to get what he wanted...to be able to teach capoeira openly, to make capoeira legal.  If he didn't do that, most of us wouldn't be training today.  There are things that are surface level that everyone sees, then there are thing that are behind closed doors that not everyone sees.  Maybe they are only for certain students, etc.  That is for a personal conversation between me and my mestre, not for a public forum.

Since Jason doesn't come from the lineage of Mestre Bimba, no he is not qualified to make statements such as the one that he made. 

Absolutely.  In capoeira my name is Espantalho.  That is the name that I should be called in any capoeira context.

Seeing how you are always so worried about people showing respect to capoeira angola, you are extremely disrespectful and not just here, but on other occaisions as well.  I've tried to be nice and you are always getting into these kinds of disagreements with people.  What is your problem?  Do you think that people should respect you? 

Hola . . .

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge, I am new to Capoeira and I love to hear all points of view.  I am especially intrigue by Orishas and all that it represents.  Reading all your posts it seems to me that if Orisha is a form of energy and if energy is neither created or destroyed, we are all experiencing the same thing as well as our ancestors the difference lies in our own limitations? ? Let me try to clarify . .  I don't know how to swim but I enjoy visiting the ocean from time to time, in one occasion I decided to jump into the water, I let the waves carry me and move me as they please and before I knew it I was miles away from where I started without any recollection on how I ended up where I did and it seemed as if time stood still as well... Could one consider that a form of possession? I am not an initiated of Candomble or IFA and respect them both the same but there lies my limitation as far as my experience with possession . .

...

I agree with the first comment, capoeira need to evolve and so it did...that is the essence of this spirit,  I cannot see the second comment, but I will yield as this is a public forum some matters are left elsewhere...however he did rephrase the question as what did "M.Bimba leave in...?" if you think that is beyond the scope of the board then so be it...but also shouldn't that go in hand to what peoples personal belief are?

Ok brother...but now you have stated it to me, if I knew you personally I probably would have used ur "legal name"...

Oooops did we all just stumble into a family feud...?

Can we please keep this off the board and stick to the issue...

@ Espantalho1 jogo...@ PGCA Brother Jason Joga Bonito que eu quero ver, the world has many eyes; if you see a snake and I kill it, does it matter......fighting over who killed it or who saw it first is some what healthy, but not really constructive...the snake is dead!!

goodness gentlemen .. .. Jogo Bonito que yo quiero ver . . .

I have always heard  In Capoeira, there are no winners or losers and I also heard In the Roda the true self comes to play...

and if Esu presides over the Roda why are we focus on whether his hat is red or black . . I'm sure there is more to this back and forth movement and I have been told that movement with out context is just that - - a movement - - so from my perspective please gentlemen I ask Jogo con calma que you quiero aprender ..

Your quotes seem a little overboard seems Ive touched a nerve.. Basically I said: I dont believe in ghosts, and I believe religion to be a mental construct. This is my reality, just as your belief system is yours.   So it aint so for me.  As for how I regard people whom I share the roda with... I could care less.  I want our students to believe in themselves first, actually.

Seriously everyone.. if you believe in ghosts, then you need to be ok with it and not get all freaked out when it goes under scrutiny.  By all means.. SEND your ghosts to our academy tonight.. Ill be there.. and if anything spooky happens, Brother Jason, Ill apologize.

@ejodudu-  Different people play different games and theres some room for you when we play, for me this week, Nunca dei meu golpe em vão. perhaps next week I may want to goof a bit.

@Jason- My "lineage" isnt directly from Bimba.. so yes you presume alot.. for that matter.  Who do you train under BTW? Im curious.

Well all.. im on one of these ridiculous touchpads and Im afraid all the finger swipes may summon a djinn.. ill chime in later

Toooodles

@manhoso113,

A minha pergunta? responder?

1.) You shouldn't going swimming in the ocean if you cannot swim :P that was the power of water trying to take you with it hahahahaha joke aside it is what you make it sister that is not for people to decide. Não é amor posse? I think I am learning Capoeira has different messages but one messenger.

2.) Os homens! O que mais?

they try to run the world even the WWW

so welcome to the fiasco, this is actually very good it can get horrible

"So, yes, I believe that it is possible for divination/possession to occur in the Roda."

Divination can happen in the roda?  That's interesting.  So in the middle of a game someone stops to cast ikin, opele, or obi to take a reading for a client.  That's a new one.  I never heard of that before. 

 I live in LA.  If you would like to have this conversation in person at some point I would be more than happy to oblige.  I'll even buy you a cup of coffee.  As far as what personal beliefs are, well I think that there are certain rumors that may have been spread, maybe intentionally and maybe not (may have just been a misunderstanding or lack of information), about this lineage or that to try to discredit certain people or to make other people sound better, etc.  It's really an old and tired game and it just makes everyone that takes part look bad.

The only person who brought up "ghosts" is Rioquamyhe...  He had one friend who believes in Orishas and he talked about another girl who believes in "ghosts".  But you , mockingly, refer to them as if they were the same thing in an attempt to make this topic some "spooky" and "superstitious" fabrications...  So yes, for me, you attempted to strike at a nerve.  When you mock someones belief system as foolishness, you mock the believers as a "fool".  Your attitude towards this topic shaped my attitude towards you.  You close your point with a mocking reference to a Djinn.  You might consider you comments to be humorous.  But to those whom you mock, it really isn't. If your words were simply "dissent" then that would be a different story but your words are to mock...

I have no worries about people respecting Capoeira de Angola because people do respect it; including you...  And to those who don't respect it, that is their business.  My "problem" is with those who have a vested interest in disrespecting Capoeira de Angola.  Now if calling you out of your Capoeira Name is being disrespectful, then I am not above an apology but to be honest, I thought that Espantalho was just a name you made up for this form. I have been at many rodas where you were present and have not heard anyone call you by anything other than you real name (I can not speak for being in your academy or at your academies rodas).  I never knew that calling some out of their Capoeira nickname was so extremely disrespectful. So if I disrespected you in this regards then I can apologize. But I think that the real reason you are upset is because you thought that you were anonymous.

I don't expect everyone to "respect"me...  I know quite a few people in the Capoeira community that really don't respect me.  That is not my concern...  It does not become my concern unless and until they cross the line of respect into disrespect.   Once their lack of respect becomes disrespect then I will deal with it accordingly but I couldn't care less if people respected me or not.  I hope that my character will produce respect.

This is the first comment you made about me on this thread...  You state that I am unqualified to make my statement but don't want to go into why.  You insult my intelligence when what I said was not untrue but when I respond to your insult, you accuse me of being disrespectful.  If Mestre Bibma taught African Spiritually in "secret" then that is in secret.  But his ideas of what he wanted to see Capoeira is what he taught in open. Ejodudu spoke on that very well.  Are you more qualified to talk about Mestre Bimba than I because you study under one of his students???  You should be...  But that does not mean that I have no qualifications...  Despite what you might think, I love Mestre Bimba...  Do I believe that he changed Capoeira? Yes, but that does not take away my love for his contributions...  Regional Capoeira is for the Regionalista:  Angola is for the Angoleiro.  I have no problem with those who do Regional Capoeira or Contemporary Capoeira.  But I come across too many of them that seem to be vested in proving that Capoeira is not African and they do it disrespectfully.

Manhoso113, with respect you seem to know an awful lot about a subject that by your own admission you have no direct experience of. I've just cooked christmas dinner, but could in no way tell you the chemical and physical process of how it all cooked, does that mean cooking is magic, or perhaps it never cooked atall and I have just persuaded my family that it is via shared hallucination, an they are in fact not really full and dozing, but poisoned :0D ? What is your definition of a ghost? Is it the same as everyone elses on here (an indeed are their beliefs all the same, if not it makes having a precise argument difficult) or are you arguing from an understanding and viewpoint of the supernatural that you held before you took up capoeira, does that translate to capoeira?

I wonder with ancestral spirits linked to capoeira,( suspending disbelief for a minute and assuming they exist as non corpereal entities) what they are. Are they the deceased person in their entirety or are they simply the aspect of that person related to capoeira? Does that mean they are truely a sentinant thing or merely an echo held in the general web of energy capoeira rodas can tap into? In my experience of some good capoeira rodas it feels as though there are more people present than are physically in the room. None of them however have ever wandered by as it were as a distinct `ghost', if they had I'd have mostly definately stopped them for a chat, I'm sure a lot of questions about capoeira history could be answered, (an maybe the winning lottery numbers).

I'm not sure that people could send` their' ghosts to your roda, kinda in a Top Trumps sort of way (I have a ghost worth 200 ancester points v.s your top capoeirista with only 50 axe points) I rather suspect if the `ghosts' run in the energy they are in fact already there.

I don't really strongly believe without a shadow of a doubt anything about anything, as it will probably be proved wrong sooner or later. Having an open an objective viewpoint, for me involves trying to avoid preconceptions, whether those are about things definatley existing or definately not existing, which means in a roundabout way people who believe and don't believe could all, all be wrong or all all be right, frankly does it matter? (other than it has acted as a pleasent vehicle for everyone to ramble about their philosophies. My family are waking now so assumedly not poisoned, meaning cooking today for me wasn't magic, maybe tomorrow.......)

@lennon  Ive had quite a bit of exposure with Yorùbá religion, as with one of its offshoots, while I certainly am not a practitioner.. the concepts and ideas are easy to grasp.  I actually keep an open mind to things, and find alot of the artwork associated with it to be really amazing.

I dont know what happens when we die.. Im still waiting for Houdini's ghost to come back.. I so was hoping he would have come by the academy Friday.

Jason-  I think you should try the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. I dont believe in supernatural spells, or curses (a fundamental part of Yoruba and its offshoots).. not because im closed minded, or cynical, or think you are foolish.. but because I have yet to see any compelling evidence...EVER.

Also, thank you for taking the time to spell my name correctly.. I hate it when people leave the s off the end..the s is for super.

arguably religions are merely either a way to control people or peoples best explanation of stuff that has happened to them, Its easy to grasp the intellectual concepts of all religions as, lets face it none of them are terribly intellectual, god dies gods reborn or god or gods equal sun/seasons and or human attributes etc etc. Religion is like someone working out how to drive a car independently and after many days of trying, managing to start it whilst wearing a flowery hat, other people get involved and want to do it too. the resulting `religion' of driving the car( i.e set of instructions that are passed by the first guy to everyone, who then adhere to them in order to get what they want) involves wearing a flowery hat to start the car, which obviously has nothing to do with how the car actually works, arguably the same can be said of religion v.s for want of a better word spirtuality/ the way the universe actually works.

I am not trying to get  you to "believe" in something that you don't believe in...  Your belief system is your business.  The only point I would have to make to you is that mocking other people's beliefs is foolish.  I have experienced many things that make my belief strong...  The fact that you haven't does not make my experiences less valid.  If you don't have a spiritual belief system then good for you but calling the beliefs of others " hoodoo ghosts, superstitions, xenu and other silly fabrications" is not dissent but disrespect.

I didn't insult your intelligence.  I simply said that you are not qualified to make such claims and you're not.  You don't train under Mestre Bimba's lineage.

It took me a while to respond to this because I really don't know how to respond, but you need to think about your recent behavior.  What you did was unacceptable and extremely disrespectful.  For over 10 years I have kept my capoeira name and my real name separate on these forums.  After I tell you that it is disrespectful to use someone's real name, you burn my nickname just like that.  You can't take that back.  The damage is done.  Espantalho is the name given to me by my first teacher, who still claims me as his student.  It is not some name that I made up for these forums.  I may have let people get away with calling me by my real name, maybe more that I should have, but that was simply because I know that they didn't know any better.  At the end of the Angola rodas in LA, when people are introducing themselves, I introduce myself as Espantalho from United Capoeira Association.  Hundreds of capoeiristas know me by that name.  And unlike you, I have only posted on these forums under one name.

Other things that you have done recently such as on Facebook, you quoting my Mestre's book at me and trying to twist his words into something he didn't say.  That wasn't how the book was written and not how it was meant to be read.  If Mestre Joao Grande had a book out, I wouldn't dream of quoting it at you and trying to twist his words.  That is extremely disrespectful.  Time and time again, you are crossing lines that I wouldn't dare cross.

You also spread questionable information/misinformation about Mestre Bimba and his lineage and then get mad when I tell you that you are not qualified to make these statements.

I have been very supportive of the Angola movement in LA as have other people who are not of your lineage.  However, I think it will be a long time before I visit another Angola roda in LA.  I can't support something when people such as yourself are spreading lies/misinformation about my lineage, my mestre, etc.  This is just unbelievable and unacceptable.  I know I am not the first capoeiristas to unfriend you on facebook and with how you are behaving, I doubt I will be the last.

So you respect Mestre Bimba, but you constantly spread misinformation/lies about him.  Sounds pretty disrespectful to me.

Prove it...  What "Africanisms" did Mestre Bimba leave in???  Where in your Game is it expressed?  I did not "lie" on Mestre Bimba!

Like I said before, certain things are not for a public forum.

"Bimba took out all of the African Spirituality from his Capoeira"

The ONLY people that are qualified to make statements such as this are the DIRECT students of Mestre Bimba.

As stimulating as this conversation is, I'm done with it.

Getting back to the original topic, I would like to leave you with this song by Mestre Acordeon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU0VEtuKARQ&feature=related

Jason-

Where is it that you get information, exactly, about M.Bimba's beliefs or practices?  Cubano?

Why exactly do you discount Espanta's Mestre as someone who may know MORE about this than you?

You can "attempt" to rationalize the Orisha traditions, you will fail ABSOLUTELY trying to intellectualize it...

Manhoso113, Yoruba 'religion is  easy to grasp", however not its spiritualism; the best analogy is capoeira basic movements are relatively easy to grasp; its application is another matter altogether...

while I appreciate your position in regards to the Orisha traditions I also believe it is a slight and a disservice to the community to push this view as 'hoopla', anywayz I do believe Mestre Bimba did NOT remove ALL aspects of "Africanism"; however again it is clear his position was to recreate a purely martial aspect of capoeira. Ultimatley, forget what is behind close doors; one of the keys elements of the Africanism is the theatrics and kinematics. Those who practice capoeira with these aesthetics express it as a group openly as a matter of fact, I have heard it often said, traditional capoeira players "attempt to express their respective personalities outwardly"...this is a very, very big factor. This is not to say "others" do not seek to express their individuality, more than likely they are more seasoned players to be able to adapt to this philosophy of movement...

I will argue for the most of us outsiders looking in to the regional or modern practice, it just "appears" profane; of course this is not 100% because there are always exceptions...(I personally have seen otherwise) it is just not a norm. Perhaps the point to take away is the objectives of a traditional player is quite different from the so called "modern" player; if we can agree to this the matter can reconcile itself...

@PGCABrother Jason...a hint: the belt system or actually the colors are "suppose" to be that of the Orishas M.Bimba acknowledged. I use "suppose" because it is third hand information and it can be affirmed or negated...also there is the ubiquitous au into the roda. The point however is most players do not know this because it is not something openly discussed due to its ramification...but what do I know!?!?

@Ejo-

I appreciate your points.  For the time period, I do understand the incredible importance yoruba, and its offshoots, had for slaves who were stripped of their culture.  For today, I feel the wards/talismans/spells are just... eehh well anyways, lets not beat a dead horse.

The notion that M.Bimba removed all aspects of africanism is laughable.. For the life of me.. I really cant think of what capoeira with all its african elements removed, as suggested, would look like.. a cardio capo-boxing class??

I never suggested that I knew anything about Mestre Bimba's beliefs Or practices...  Mestre Bimba may have practiced African Religion as far as I know...  He may have believed in the Orishas...  Is it possible that he may have had beliefs that he did not include when creating his  "luta regional baiana".  I have read much on Mestre Bimba and everything that I have read compliments what I have been saying...  Now if there were some "secret" training sessions that Mestre Bimba had with some of his students then I don't know.  But what Bimba taught in the public, was not a Capoeira that involved the rituals that were in Angola.

I asked "Scarecrow" to prove what he is saying but he claims that it is not a discussion for "public forms"...  If there is African Religion/Spiritualism represented in Regional Capoeira then why Can't Scarecrow talk about it?  In fact, he shouldn't have to talk about it anyway, we should see in in the "game".  He wants to say that I am spreading lies about Mestre Bimba but he can't present the proof?  All you have to do is do a google search on Bimba and everything you read will say the same thing...  That he took out the ritualistic and ceremonial elements out of capoeira and focused on the "fight".  I didn't make this stuff up...  Scarecrow should put up or shut up!  Don't call me a lie and then say "I can't talk about it here..."  Inbox me if you can't talk about it in the public...

As far as my Professor, Cubano, is concerned;  Cubano taught me that Bimba was an Angoleiro!  He taught me that there was "Capoeira" and that there was "Regional Capoeira".  He taught me that Capoeira Angola was first and Regional Capoeira came form the Angola with other elements added to it and some elements taken out.  In my now 15 years of Studying Capoeira, I find more and more proof of what my Professor has taught me.

What ramification would come from openly discussing African Religion in Regional Capoeira?

@Manhoso113...food for thought:

Einstein projected the idea E=MC^2 was the fundamental nature of the mass–energy equivalence, the Yoruba say Ase...which is actually conceptually similar. My point? We see things differently because of the construct of the universe. You ask a babalawo what is Einstein's theory of relativity he will ask you "ki lo we?", you explain the concept he will tell you what corpus speaks of this...you see air, I see vaporized water...all degrees Brother!

Anyways there is a continuum, the keepers of the Bahian form of capoeira are the angoleiros whom were/are MOSTLY afrobrazilian and this "way of living" is tantamount to their conception of the universe and reality they found themselves in...then and now does not change much of the philosophy.

There was capoeira that was played before M.Bimba, there was capoeira M.Bimba recreated and then there is the capoeira that does not follow the tradition of M.Bimba's recreation nor does it follow the capoeira he played nor his father before him played. The latter I will argue is responsible for stripping the MOST rituals and the soul of the African aesthetics out of O jogo de capoeira.

None..

And FYI...and theres only two actual groups who train/study traditional Regional capoeira.. the rest play capoeira contemporana.

Agreed... There is one Bimba School that I know of here in Redondo Beach (California)...  When I went to one of their Rodas, it looked almost as if they were playing a fast game of Angola.

lol of course without the chamadas; so will you at least agree then that it is NOT regional de Bimba that totally "estranged" capoeira from its mother? Which brings another issue to light. Modern Capoeira or contemporanea argues they actually include elements of both so called styles of the art or even "play angola" and "switch" when the pace of the music changes. So if they add elements of angola does it not mean that there "style" is composite and therefore should contain spirituality?

I believe Ejodudu summed it well; it is a continuum, I will add as everything moves away from the center, well they move from the center.

I guess for someone to say that a black man (bimba) was able to "strip" all things african from his creation, seems a bit obtuse, to me.. I see african elements remaining in bimbas creation

Bimba quite often mentions Aruanda in many of his songs, both in public or recorded on tape.. thats a big whopping orisha red flag, no?

How about the very ritual nature of capoeira..while standing in a circle, a practice by tribes that predate capoeira.. another flag

Berimbau, and moving to music in this circle where the spectators are also participants.. wont find that anywhere in portugal buddy..

lastly, jason.. today some of us are able to work with capoeira full time in schools, parks, and for me DCFS or our academy.  There are strict rules about religion and the discussion of it with kids.  If this thread is any indication of how it takes the focus off capoeira, and on to something that is more personal or polarizing then I see why back then he may have turned it back a notch.  I dont discuss anything except capoeira and capoeira music with them.

lastly I find it odd for someone so concerned with tradition, that you opt to not use capoeira music to teach and play to... talk about eliminating an element to make it more palpable to your students eh?

Exactly my reason for not wanting to get too personal about it or share certain things.  I already checked out of this discussion as it doesn't seem to be productive, but I would like to share this quote

"At the formatura (graduation) party there was a roda with one berimbau and two pandeiros, and many iaos (women who were members of candomble or Afro-Brazilian religion) who sang the chorus.  One (or maybe both) of Mestre Bimba's wives was a mae-de-santo (high priestess) in candomble.  Many of his lovers (one wife counted thirty-seven of them) also belonged to candomble."  A Street Smart Song by Mestre Nestor Capoeira page 50

PS I need to listen to this song again.  It SOUNDS as if there is something in there.  Maybe in the lyrics and I like the rhythm at the end.  But hey, what do I know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU0VEtuKARQ&feature=related

PPS There were 3 schools of Bimba's regional in LA alone.  Capoeira South Bay, Arte Luta Capoeira, and Capoeira Centro Sul, although now Centro Sul is now Capoeira Manginguiero (not sure if it's still specifically regional), but I think there is still Centro Sul in Arkansas (I think all under Mestre Deputado and Mestre Onca Negra).

In UCA, Mestre Acordeon teaches us contemporary capoeira regional AND capoeira regional.

@Manhoso113 So you were holding out? I see your point ...I have children who play capoeira under M.Acordeon's lineage; their professor will acknowledge the origin of the art and talk at length on slavery, but will dare not bring up the spirituality of these Africans...why is this? because of the make up of the class, mostly children and are of "other" ethnic group...capoeira is diversity, true!...try to make a living from it speaking about this "Espiritismo"...individuality and secularism are partly to blame at least in the North American experience.

So while you are absolutely right, we have to agree that to some the artform is just sport or sport like...it is superficial and this is also fine, you can speak of Aruanda or even Pelourinho in the music; but these are just places or things to some people, only those who seek the deeper measures will get its capoeira context, the Brazilian historicity or its connection to life in general...would you say so?

...And the child learning in the tradition of Angola starts out I personally think on a much broader spectrum...only because objective is different, but make no mistake growth can be stunted too...My Grandfather will say "a well has a source, seek it..." some folks are simply contended at the well, others seek a source...funny enough, some are at the source and trivially go to the well...!!

@Espantalho...not fair to the OP, while it may seem the original question may have strayed it is clear that the issue is much deeper. Saying it is not productive is saying you had a particular direction you expected and since it did not go towards that direction you will rather forfeit. I say adapt, you can make it productive; but you choose to keep some issues in "your pocket"; that is fine but this is not chess...you can express some things without divulging what you hold dear...at least I do, but then you aren't me...

For me the core of this thread is centered around dogmatism versus its opposite, which I will narrowly call pragmatism...spirituality in this context may lay in between

I am not suggesting that he took out everything "African"...  After all, like you said, He Is An African (you said Black)...  The Berimbau is an African instrument...  Again, I will say that he took out the African Religion/Spiritualism...

PGCABrother Jason...I am not following this logic; if as you say '(M.Bimba) did not take out everything African', then what does your last sentence mean?

If you are saying rituals removed...then yes, this is true based on the demographics he was teaching etc, etc and ultimately what he sort...which you have agreed. It has also been made clear Capoeira de angola and Regional de Bimba sort different means to the same end. By your own admission, you said you have seen Regional de Bimba and 'it looks like a fast game of Capoeira de Angola'...Capoiera Angola Palmares of M.Norival is arguably similar to Regional and yet it isn't Regional de Bimba are we going to say the capoiera he learned and plays is stripped of its African/Spiritualism?

I think we are in a bind here...no one has yet to define this spirituality and perhaps for good reason, ones lineage or traditions is all that there is...these things are expressed individually by an inwardly, outwardly characteristic or communally; when and if defined from a "this is what ALL capoeira should look like" then it leads to dogma...which capoeira isn't...well and is!!

Manhoso113 wrote:

@Manhoso113Not to take away from your response, some Black men don't think they are Black, talk less of African. I like to just get into a little of your point if you don't mind. many people go to church and even spit the "werd" but this does not make them spiritual or even religious in the simplest sense. I am not saying Bimba was not! I am just using your point to make another I guess. So while we play capoeira to music and participate in a roda this may be just as profane and superficial as those camaleão who like to thump their bibles.

This begs the question, what is sacred, when is it real, what is ritual when is it real? how does this all tie into spirituality and is it shared or is it individual experience?

laite-  That point isnt really for me to speak on.. im not black, or african.  I seriously doubt that our M.Bimba was denying self.. just using Mandinga to navigate a path.

One could say that the sacredness that is ascribed by its follower is the bond that makes it real.. for that person/persons/followers. (some would say this is truth, or the definition of) I would say that it is a shared, individual experience.. there are many individuals in scientology or ________ that share a belief that such and such is sacred, and is the way to whatever they regard salvation is.

hmmmn interesante obrigado!

Not sure how you got the idea that I "eliminated" Capoeira Music from my instruction and my playing...

I know this is a bit off topic. But I haven't really seen or heard any 'capoeira of the old' being played in any African country. The groups there are mainly formed by Brazilians who travelled to Africa. I'm curious to know why this is so. If the 'original' capoeira came from Africa, why is it that there is no trace of it there? I could be wrong but haven't heard or seen it anywhere.

Anyone know of a group in any African country that practices the original capoeira?

sometimes u have to look beyond your own 'rose colored glasses' the art itself is older than the current iteration ...expand

I know this is a bit off topic. But I haven't really seen or heard any 'hiphop of the old' being played in any African country. The groups there are mainly formed by Americans who travelled to Africa or vice versa. I'm curious to know why this is so. If the 'original' hiphop came from Africa, why is it that there is no trace of it there? I could be wrong but haven't heard or seen it anywhere. Anyone know of a group in any African country that practices the original hiphop?

oh oh, I know, I know...maybe from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itu40vnPBM0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism

Still doesn't mean that I "eliminated" Capoeira Music...  Does it...?

I just said that I knew where he got the idea.

Actually, you specifically said "what Africanisms did he leave in?"

Getting to the last part of your statement "Again, I will say that he took out the African Religion/Spiritualism..."

Did you train under Mestre Bimba?  Are you really a lot older than you pretend to be?  Did you train under Mestre Bimba at his academy?  Please tell me, what qualifies you to make this statement?

Did mestre Bimba forbid his students to practice candomble, umbanda, etc in their personal lives?  So if they practice these things in their personal lives and they go into the roda, are their beliefs not in the roda with them?  Did he only accept students who were christian or muslim, or jewish or atheist?  Did he forbid his students from singing songs to the orixa in the roda?  Did he forbid his graduated students from doing things like hanging pictures of the orixa on the walls of their academy or even painting murals of the orixa on the walls of their academy, having a candomble altar at their academy, talking to their students about the orixa, writing and singing songs to the orixa, etc?

So what specifically did Mestre Bimba take out that has you so worried?

You said "He took out the ladainha, He took out the ceremonial elements which involve the "spirituality"...  Not sure if he took out "volta do mundo"..."

The volta do mundo is still there, so that's not an issue.  So is a ladainha candomble?  Is it umbanda?  What are you saying?  What ceremonial elements which involve spirituality are you talking about?

Is it impossible for someone who does capoeira regional to have a spiritual experience in the roda?  How do you know?  Do you train capoeira regional?

In capoeira angola do you only accept students that practice candomble, umbanda, or some other african traditional or african diasporic religion?  Are you saying that christians, muslims, jews, atheists, etc can't do capoeira angola?  Are you saying that capoeira angola IS candomble?  Are you saying that capoeira angola IS umbanda?

Very good...this is what a forum should look like not attacking people all the time, but ideas are always up for scrutiny...thank you Espantalho1. Let me give my thoughts on this; I think it is obvious where I stand...I think as people, we fall into categorizing things more so compare things and draw our conclusions from there. Be as it may, I have heard Capoeira Angola as a complete art in its expression and through the years I will have to say I innerstand that. I like to use hiphop as an analogy; rapping is an element of hiphop , which will make rapping a composite of hiphop...and since hiphop contains many elements it will make it more holisitc and complete for the specific art...do you agree?

We have all agreed Regional was an evolution that the spirit of what we now call "capoeira" needed to do to stay "alive" or better yet...in other for the older tradition of capoeira to survive it injected Regional as a response to changes in its time. Regional specifically is a martial objective, this the outward manifestation...whether it was a means to an end or the end to a means can be debated; we just don't know, at least I don't...however what we see is a martial objective...whether the practitioners are zombies, romans, visigoths, xtians or jews is mute. In the roda, your objective is efficiency...theatrics, individual aesthetics, traditional ritualisitic movements etc...come at a cost...and mind you these things are well regarded by the "mother; its traditional form. Things have to be mechanized and as the student develops then these things may get externalized. As a "style" however the subject matter appears internalized for the most part...spiritualism is perhaps the wrong word to be using here, but I could be also wrong because no one yet has summoned the courage to define it.

 I don't think its a lack of courage but a lack of vocabulary. Well I believe strictly speaking spiritualism is several middle aged ladies calling the souls of the dead into them to talk to their loved ones, they don't charge anything so lets hope everyone all round gets comforted an the channelers feel useful, is it real though thats the question. Spirituality is I think the reality behind the bollocks, strip away religions with the self serving aspects of their creators, look at what drives them, the old stuff, energies connected with birth, death gateway moments, the stuff that mostly sticks time together so we don't all live inside out and back to front. yes energy is a painfuly unscientific word, an unquantifiable word yet Axe is a central tenant to capoeira. So eventually spirituality comes down to a personal sense of the liminal, the state of being in two different states on existential planes, it is spoken about in the legends of many cultures For me spirituality in capoeira is a sense of connection with its past, feet on dusty mud, heartbeats and sweat as close as your camaras, but in reality all of them fell and beat in a roda or something that shared its energy a hundred years before. A memory from a lineage that isn't mine by blood. Is it purely personal? Quiet probably.

Thank you.  And thank you for pushing me to try another approach.

Concerning your hip hop analogy, I would agree.  Now to elaborate on it, let's say that you have one hip hop crew that is more specialized towards rapping, but also does some break dancing.  And another that specializes in break dancing, but also does some rapping.  Each crew is doing hip hop, but they are more proficient in their specialization, yes?  One thing that Mestre Acordeon told me a while back is that with the advent of the capoeira academy, you now have groups that specialize in different aspects of capoeira.  I'm paraphrasing there, so hopefully I got it right.  This is something that wasn't done before, because you now have 1 teacher with many students.  An Instrutor of capoeira once told me that "teachers tend to teach what they are good at".  Do you agree?

Concerning the martial aspects of capoeira, that is another discussion altogether.  I've heard some people say that Mestre Bimba brought back the martial tradition that he felt was getting lost.  If you look at rugendas drawings, which is the earliest record that we have of capoeira, it doesn't look much like angola or regional.  Notice the closed fists http://www.centroreferenciacapoeiracarioca.net/img/fotos/i13.jpg

Take capoeira Batuque for example.  They seem to be really good at the martial aspect, yet their capoeira doesn't come from Mestre Bimba.  I've heard people call them regional, but that doesn't make sense because as far as I know, they can't trace their lineage to Mestre Bimba.  So what are they, angola?  And if they are good at the martial aspects, but didn't get the martial aspects from Mestre Bimba, where did it come from?  Maybe we are simply looking at different snap shots in time, without one really being the mother or more traditional than the other.  Once a Professore from a different lineage than mine was asked the question "what is traditional capeoira?"  He responded with "it is the capoeira that our mestres teach us".  I like his answer.  So I guess I don't really know to what extent the martial aspect of capoeira was expressed in different time periods of capoeira history BEFORE Mestre Bimba's academy.

Now the evolution that Mestre Bimba did do, was make capoeira legal, start an academy, start a trend where 1 teacher has many students, start using sequences as a method of training, start things like uniforms and ranking systems, graduation ceremonies, declared a formal organization to the orchestra in his academy of 1 berimbau and two pandeiros.  Later as other academies opened, they copied one, some, or all of these ideas in various capacities.  I could be wrong, but this is how I understand it.

Sorry to take things off track of the original topic.

And yes, I would like to hear someone's definition of spiritualism.

Also, concerning the martial aspects, regional is just one game that Mestre Bimba taught.  He also taught banguela which is played low to the ground without touching the other person.  So the objective that you are looking for depends on the rhythm that is being played.

?

Wow...  How did I miss that one???

Very agreeable on the langauge; it is why Capoeira is 359 degrees practise and 1 degree theory....in any regards your definition it is very thought out. Hopefully other will chime in...

Spirituality is purely personal, but it can also be shared. ABSOLUTELY, I personally cannot define it, but I will say spirituality isn't just dogma!

@Espantalho1...

Yes I see what you are saying here, but I don't think I agree with this analogy...not because there isn't sound logic...but I am also African and while this iteration of martial dance is known as capoeira; it is NOT that much different from the one back home energetically. Every one of them involves onlookers...so there is theatrics, it is play and I mean that in the sense of grown folks playing like children, it is ritualistic. Have you seen people flog one another with switches bleeding and still come hug one another and spit kola? I digress...this is may sound like I am advocating for one philosophy over another...not really; this is already self evident. Your individual expression in ALL its manifestation, your own aesthetics in ALL its manifestation as it relates to the game is very well accepted from the get go. I am not talking about schools here, but the general philosophy of what most accept as traditional capoeira. And as such, every element one must be proficient in. You use the word specialize perhaps it is semantics...but when one uses hiphop in the mainstream media as metrics, they are doing themselves a disservice, underground is where the truth lies. There are groups that specialize and thats good, but then there are those that are very very well rounded and there are a sight to behold...again very well could be semantics.

On another hand I am sensing you may also be coming from this new school of thought that says "traditional capoeira isn't that traditional"; I have actually read M. Acordeon express this somewhere in writing, but it was never expanded on, he is maybe 50 out of 1000 advocating this ideology...but that is neither here or there...

Yes teacher definitely teach what they are good at...and sometimes that is not good either...if you were around in the early 90's you will know what I mean..."good" can be fluff and BS...especially when the audience does not know any better

...And I have heard folks say otherwise about M.Bimba who should I believe?...I cannot speak on it, but what is currently in front of me...this goes the same for the drawing, it lacks a context...

I don't like to box people, if I have to quantify their style of play I will say it is likened to traditional capoeira in a contemporary setting just like Capoeira Angola Palmares...anywayz M.Amen Santos can trace his lineage to GM.Waldemar who played traditional Capoeira. Bimba did not invent the martial aspect in Capoeira, he "recreated" it or expanded it if you want to be political correct. You have to becareful of this "new age" thinking of capoeira...it is like folks who reject xtianity and then turn off and become aetheist...like the God of xtianity is the same all over. You can reject Angola, you cannot reject its tradition. Whether you like to believe it or not...there is still traditional capoeira and M.Pastinha lineage does not hold all the dice...

Having said that, I agree..I also think M.Bimba above all revolutionaized the thinking of the "old ways", arguably M.Bimba did not play Regional himself...he still played the old game...his respective students are responsible for most of the changes, imo!

Now my contention is simply based on the people M.Bimba graduated...

The core of this string still lies about the orisha traditions and now spirituality derived from those whom were enslaved...the philosophical split must have happened implicitly while he was living, however when he passed on...this split became very explicit...why? we can talk about all this fluff...but obviouly there was a schism...PGCA Brother Jason has a reason for saying what he says, M.Nenel says something somewhat similar...why? is it ego or there is really a spiritual or philosophical issue?

Scarecrow:  Whether Mestre Bimba's students, or even Mestre Bimba himself practiced African Religion or not says nothing to whether or not Mestre Bimba taught it in his academy...  Also, I am not suggesting that Bimba forbid his students from being religious.  Again, that would have nothing to do with what Bimba "taught" in his academy.  The fact that it may be possible for someone to have a "spiritual experience" in a Regional Roda still says nothing about what Mestre Bimba taught. So you can keep pointing to what individual do but Mestre Bimba created a "system" that eliminated much of what Capoeira incorporated.  You said a few posts back that "Mestre Bimba used malandragem to get what he wanted...to be able to teach capoeira openly, to make capoeira legal."  That "if he didn't do that, most of us wouldn't be training today."  What are you suggesting that Mestre Bimba did??? You seem to be indicating that what I said is true... But at the same time you don't like what I said.  Regardless, it doesn't matter what Mestre Bimba's reasonings were, the the only point I made was that he changed the Capoeira into a different philosophy.

I may recite the “Pledge of Allegiance”…   Or sing the “Star Spangled Banner”…  I may sing t with the strongest of convictions and may even cry…  I may recite the Pledge with so much honor and since of duty and patriotism that you can see the Love of Country vibrating out from every pore…

On the other hand, you may say the Pledge  only because your teacher taught you to.  “Please stand…”  You stand.  “Put your right hand over your heart…”  You put your right hand over your heart.  “Ready begin...”  And you begin reciting.  You may have no feelings what-so-ever, except that you were taught to do something and so you do it.

My point is that even though you can find some of the same components in Regional Capoeira that you find in Capoeira (Angola), it doesn’t mean that the same purpose backs them.

A prime example is the Negativa.  The Negativa in Capoeira has the same name as the Negativa in Regional Capoeira but the principles are different; the purpose is different.  The two may have in common the fact that Negativa is an escape but what else is Negativa?

Regional Capoeira has the Au’…  Maybe you knew that in Capoeira (Angola), Spiritually, it was said that the movements on the hands was a connection to the spiritual realm…   It was said that when you are upside down, the spirits are right-side-up.  So ritualistically, Au’ is more than just a “movemet”…

Touching the ground and “crossing” oneself, has little to do with Christianity but more to do with connecting to the Ancestral world…

In the Jogo de Capoeira as well as the Jogo de Regional Capoeira, there is singing…  The singing involves “Call and Response”  but is it for all the same reasons?  Is the purpose of the singing the same?  There is Music but is the purpose of the Music the same…  Of course the music dictates the jogo but is that all it does?  Does playing music in Capoeira (Angola) serve the same purpose as playing music does in Regional Capoeira?

I said within another post that I went to a Roda given by a Regional group and they looked “as if” they were playing a fast game of Angola.  I said “as if” because in Angola is more than what I was witnessing.  That is not to say that I did not enjoy what I was watching and I am by no means putting a “judgment” on what I witnesses…  It is just different.

And if you guys don’t believe that Bimba changed the Capoeira then why the excuses/reasonings???  One of you suggest that Bimba left these things out based on the demographics of his students and another one of you suggests that " said in an earlier post that "Mestre Bimba used malandragem to get what he wanted...to be able to teach capoeira openly, to make capoeira legal."  That "if he didn't do that, most of us wouldn't be training today."  You both seem to be indicating that what I said is true but at the same time you don't like what I said.  Regardless, it doesn't matter what Mestre Bimba's reasonings were, the the only point I made was that he left these elements out.

So before you were saying "Bimba took out all of the African Spirituality from his Capoeira so no one expects you to except African spirituality in Capoeira..." which I personally think is impossible for M. Bimba to take out ALL of the African Spirituality from his capoeira, but that is your opinion and I have no idea where you got it from as you still have not told me how you are qualified to discuss what Mestre Bimba did or didn't do.  Now you are saying that you are not concerned with what African Spirituality was in M. Bimba's capoeira or that of his students, but you are specifically worried about what Mestre Bimba taught?  is that what you are saying?

The evolution that Mestre Bimba did do, was make capoeira legal, start an academy, start a trend where 1 teacher has many students, start using sequences as a method of training, start things like uniforms and ranking systems, graduation ceremonies, declared a formal organization to the orchestra in his academy of 1 berimbau and two pandeiros.

I don't remember you making the point that you think Mestre Bimba changed the capoeira into a different philosophy.  Are you making that point now?

This is a good post.  I've read it a few times, but never responded.  My scooby doo comments was simply because Manhoso said g-g-g-g-g-ghosts like they do on scooby doo.  That is all.  People choose to be overly sensitive and get offended, maybe this is because they are not entirely comfortable with themselves and what they are doing.  They're really worried about someone else's personal beliefs?

As far as smashing heads of those that played closer to the ground, that was before my time in capoeira, and before your time in capoeira.  Hopefully it is something that we can all move past.  I believe M. Nestor wrote about this in his books and maybe also put a reason for why they did it.  It would be nice if someone has the exact quote.

PGCABrother Jason...

I have inquired a question but you have not answered? Ok so another one, do you believe that if M.Bimba did not do what he did that you will still have a capoeira to play? No you are not Eledumare, I am only asking a hypothetical question for discussion; the way you are concluding is confusing. No matter how you answer the question it is still true that what he created was different philosophically. Yes it is true in other for him to get both feet on the ground he also had to "please" the status quo by incorporating other Brazilians who were not of African/native origins. You have to be able to respect it whether you believe he did this for other motives beyond our own comprehension or not...that in itself is spiritual imo. You teach and so you have to respect that not everyone grasp ideas the same, for that matter some people have to be presented with material differently...we are almost a century far removed; imagine when Africans in America where teaching massa's children how to read or do something constructive under a different guise. In turn some of these children helped in these slaves manumission...

According to records, Capoiera in Brazil even before M.Bimba was stylistic, the way the Bahianos played was even "intra-different"based on region...talk less of say that of the Cariocas or in Recife...I suspect the way the Bahianos play suggest this area was more of a stronger spiritual center for all intense and purpose. watch these video and tell me what make it different from this one. Capoeira angola palmares does not play capoeira like say GCAP, yet they play the "angola way", (<--another thread is needed for that, but obviously there is a hint above)...albeit with few theatrics, very few individualized movements, clean straight body postures...a couple of chamadas (I have seen less than four) and wait they have a belt system...that "thing" that the Angoleiros do is just not there

...today MOST if NOT all capoeira is taught in bulk, one on one is gone probably; some few folks are still doing this but majority is like warehouse work...en masse! capoeira is taught...by someone telling you to put your feet here, your neck here and your hand there; ones body shape, physical condition in terms of mobility and insight is of no importance except if one has two students to concentrate on. Your job as a student is to learn then become educated by applying this experience to the world. You can cry and tingle when you are been taught, but unless one is able to apply this principles there are still a regurgitation. You can teach me, very well that an au or negativa is a principle...ultimately we are humans, it may just not register and that is good too! Ifa would say...'if you are walking in front of your wife and you see a snake, but she kills it...it does not matter who saw it first...that the snake is dead is the only reconciliation here'. You say Spirituality, I say common sense...they are not that different except within the mind of those that cannot see beyond their own limits...

I think we have agreed...philosophical there is a difference; but I will say don't take issue with M.Bimba's capoeira...because in reality your idea of capoeira is still within its philosophy perhaps not  so much of the adherents. I mean don't you have a hot head and a cool head within your own student group...you pick these things up immediately as a teacher and you know it goes a long way within the small niche you practice.

@Espantalho1..I am a big boy and I think adapt very quick to dynamic situations; I don't like consuming bandwidth for the sake of consumption. Someone came into this string and was talking about "they have never heard of capoeira in Africa", I answered as "favorable" as I could, it was off topic and did not really add anything of purpose to the string itself. Your comment was similar, if you choose to think my response shows my sensitivity...well it does, however not about the subject matter but redundancy. I will not enter into a conversation you are developing with someone and ask for a round triangle...it is more of a disruption of energy, you of all people should overstand that...

As for your other paragraph, well I will leave you with this...you play capoiera in the greater los angeles area; you have been to Rodas opened by Modern or contemporary schools...have you not with your own eyes witnessed this energy, when an Angoleiro walks into the roda...for that matter it is occasionally witnessed vice-versa? Yes there are exceptions...and yes my friend we are indeed free...

In the background of this thread...something else is looming and until its brought forth we are all going to be running in circle or have a DED thread

Ejodudu,  you said "The core of this string still lies about the orisha traditions and now spirituality derived from those whom were enslaved...the philosophical split must have happened implicitly while he was living, however when he passed on...this split became very explicit...why? we can talk about all this fluff...but obviouly there was a schism..."

so please state what the schism was.

My point about whether the practitioners are "zombies, romans, visigoths, xtians or jews" is not moot.  I've asked Jason a number of questions that he refuses to answer, so I will make my point anyway.  I think part of what we are getting at here is the attitude that I have heard expressed by regional/contemporary regional mestes of "I keep capoeira and religion separate".  If capoeira angola doesn't require the students to practice candomble or some other afro-brazilian religion and is willing to accept students from other religions (practicing afro-brazilian religion is not a requirement in order to train capoeira angola), then is it not fair to say that in CAPOEIRA, you can train capoeira no matter what religion you are coming from and things like candomble are there for those who want to find it and choose to pursue that path?

Again, I am seeing more similarities than differences.

If something is looming, please bring it to the forefront so that we can all learn :)

Hello Espantalho,

I have discussed part of this subject on PMs with Ejodudu and I think we concluded with something I did not really want to see. I don't know what schism he is talking about but this thread kind of shows something interesting. I will use feminism as an example, feminism has different points but most come together as an ideology that is trying to give women EQUAL power considering females are half the population of humans. Africans/African descendants/Afro brazilians are trying to either get back or maintain ideas, philosophies and spirituality embedded within a cultural form in an environment that does not cater or the elite do not want to see seeded. You can call it an ideological or even spiritual battle. Look at this thread, it is somehow the 'angolas that have the problem because they think their capoeira is holier than thou" look at the thread Shadowcat started regarding Mestre Moraes; it is Mestre Moraes who has the problem, but you go to Brazil and live (not sight seeing) you will get it especially if your skin is burnt by the sun (figuratively). It is absolutely manifested in Capoeira as politics. These brand of politics is a bitter pill to swallow because a lot of people simply do not have the luxury to want to deal.

Alafia,

Ba wo ni?

I understand what you are saying...COMPLETELY, but I also feel that there may be something more going on here, that I only partially understand.  And in some ways, I might understand the issue better than you might expect me to.  I know that you and Ejodudu probably both have a better understanding of African Traditional Religion than the average person in the United States.  Because these conversations become so personal, there becomes a point where it is better discussing it in person.  Both you and Ejodudu seem to be level headed and I would be more than willing to discuss these points in person.  As a matter of fact, I already offered to buy Ejodudu a cup of coffee.  I would like to offer to buy you one as well at the same time.  Don't worry, I have a good relationship with some of the local angoleiros, if you are worried about my character or who I am, I would be happy to supply you with references (and even invite a few of them to join us all in some coffee and conversation).  I think with a few good cups of awesome coffee, we could come to a more sensible understanding than what is going on in these forums, yes?

Odabo,

Espantalho

Yes, that is the comment that I made to Manhoso.  And yes, that is my opinion and I will stick to it.  Mestre Bimba promoted the secular aspect of Capoeira in his academy and not the Spiritual aspects.  And in taking out rituals and ceremonial elements, he did change the philosophy of the art.  Capoeira is more that a Fight or a Dance/Fight.  I don't think that anywhere in this thread did I place a "judgment" on what Mestre Bimba did.

My point has always been "what Mestre Bimba taught"...  And by the way, what qualifies me to talk on Mestre Bimba is my studies and the oral history that has been passed down to me.  What qualifies you?  You may study under one of Bimba's students but, by your own admission, your school is "Contemporary" and not "Regional".  This is an example of what someone said earlier about Bimba's students practicing other than what Mestre Bimba taught.  So what qualifies you?

So are you confusing me with Manhoso?

The comment that you made that I had an issue with is "Bimba took out all of the African Spirituality from his Capoeira so no one expects you to except African spirituality in Capoeira..."

The reason that I have an issue with that statement is that you don't know that.  I don't know that.  I wasn't there.  Again I will say that the ONLY people that are qualified to make statements like that are DIRECT students of Mestre Bimba.  You don't know what he did or didn't do in his academy.  So what qualifies me?  I'm not qualified to make a statement like that.  Am I MORE qualified to talk on it than you are?  Absolutely.  I can trace my lineage directly back to M. Bimba.  You cannot.  I personally don't believe that your statement is true based on what I have seen and experienced.  Also logically, I think that would be impossible for M. Bimba to take out ALL of the African Spirituality from his Capoeira.

So you think you are qualified to make a blanket statement like the one you made based on your studies and the oral history passed down to you.  So who's words did you study?  The words of DIRECT students of M. Bimba?  What oral history was passed down to you?  Did it come from a DIRECT student of M. Bimba?

"You may study under one of Bimba's students but, by your own admission, your school is "Contemporary" and not "Regional".  This is an example of what someone said earlier about Bimba's students practicing other than what Mestre Bimba taught."

No, what I said is that we learn contemporary capoeira regional AND capoeira regional.  So we learn the contemporary stuff and we also learn what M. Bimba taught.

I'll give you a hint.  In our academy, when you see us playing with one berimbau and two pandeiros, that probably means that we are doing M. Bimba's capoeira.  From there, the rhythm will decide if we are playing regional, banguela, or Iuna for graduated students.  When the orchestra is different, we are probably doing something else ;)

Im done feeding the troll.  Just looking at other posts of late confirms my suspicion.

Thank you Laite and Ejodudu for fleshing ideas out way past the cliched rhetoric, youve kept this thread interesting.  Hope you guys get together for cafe, and if youre on the FB maybe we can have a group chat and shoot the shizznit.

Espanta- Theres some dope angolieros out by you that travel outside the yellow and black rodas.. Dosent Daniel get around over there?  I wouldnt rule out a roda because of a troll.

Daniel from FICA in oakland?  He comes down this way every once in a while.  The last time I played him was in M. Batata's roda.  He even surprised me during a faster game :O

Thank you so very much for all that has been shared, I find everyone's passion very interesting to say the least.  I feel it might be safe to say that we are all trying to preserve something.   And yes I agree everything is similar and yet it is different.  So I ask When two people enter a Roda without prior knowledge of their lineage is it clear to see who is an angolero and who practice regional or comtemporian?

Holy dead thread batman!!

A very thin line, in fighting philosophy there is a concept called "known thy enemy" (Sun Tzu's art of war really)...without getting too philosophical the academy setting has released very good players albeit some clone like players. So a seasoned capoeirista would be able to tell what school and style for the most part...

It's easy to tell the difference. The angola player will have a hat. There are more hats there.

Absolutely!!!  Many may disagree but to me it is like comparing karate to Judo.  An origin of a thin determines its nature...

And then there are those who learn a little form here and a little form there...  they don't have a foundation in anything.

From my prospective, when I see Contemporary Capoeirista playing Angola, I see some "Angola Movements" but I don't see Capoeira de Angola.  There is a big difference in stringing some  Angola movements together and actually playing Capoeira de Angola.

True That!!!

hehehehe good wan!

fight the damn spam!!!