Hello and good day to you all. As you can see from the thread title, I am a new member. I am glad to have found this forum, and hope to become a regular member of this community.

To begin with, I would like to tell a bit about myself to make the following situation a bit more clear. I have been a martial artist since around 8 or 9 years old. The bulk of my years of training have been in Taekwondo (olympic style) During the early 2000's, I was very competitive in regional and national competitions all over the US, and in 2004 I was blessed with the one in a lifetime opportunity to come to S. Korea to join a university Taekwondo department on a full scholarship offered to me.

Also back in the early 2000's, I began to develop a keen interest in Capoeira. This was mainly due to the fact that at that time I was somewhat active in the "tricking" fad that was beginning to take off, and some of the movements or "trikz" as you might call them are/were somewhat related or derived in some ways from Capoeira movements.

At that time, I began looking for Capoeira instruction in my home area (Raleigh, NC) and found that the only option was at UNC Chapel Hill on Friday evenings. Due to my work schedule and a LONG drive through Friday night rush hour traffic, I was not able to join or otherwise participate with this group...much to my dismay.

Fast forward a few years and I found myself in S. Korea doing taekwondo as well as several other martial arts. It is not an exaggeration to say that during those first two years here I did nothing but various martial arts from sunup to sundown (boy I miss those days). I recall searching the net for Capoeira classes in Korea, under the assumption that since "b-boy" was so popular here...surely there would have been at least 1 or 2 capoeira schools in the country. Sadly, I was not able to find one.

Fast forward again to the early part of 2010, and I just happened to see a post on a facebook message board about Capoeira lessons in my city. Literally I was like a boy on Christmas morning, and rushed to find out more. The gentleman teaching the classes was from the U.K., here in Korea as an English instructor, and was offering classes at the local YMCA for a very modest fee. He held the rank of Monitor from the ACER group. The class was only once per week initially, but as the weeks rolled by I began working with him to secure other locations such as university gyms and such where he could hold additional classes and attract more students. Although there were never very many students, I enjoyed the classes very much. Most of the movements were strange to me as I was coming from a very different style of martial arts, but I learned and excelled somewhat quickly. We had together created a facebook group for the capoeira class...a group named for his association, and were using it to post in other city-related pages, and as a reference point to give out information/class times..to anyone in the city or surrounding areas. It should be pointed out that although the group was named after his home organization, the "club/group" that he formed here was not exactly a sanctioned branch, although he did have permission from his Professor and CM to teach and use their name.

A few months later, he went back to England to renew his passport, train with his group there, and upon returning would take a job in Seoul. While he was away, he left me (as the most senior member) to teach very basic material to whatever existing or new members would attend a class until his return a few weeks later, at which time even though living in Seoul (90 minutes away on the high-speed rail) he would continue to teach the classes on a weekend. Although up until the time he left there were never any more than 10-15 people who had taken a class (and even fewer who came on a regular basis) we were beginning to get more attention for the group, networking with other clubs in the city (B-boy, dance studios..etc)

Sadly, while in England, he had a type of "falling out" with a CM regarding a berimbau he took. According to him, he was told he could have it to bring back to Korea to help with the group here (at that time, we had no instruments/uniforms...etc) while the CM contended and told others that he stole the berimbau and that he was a thief.Because of this situation, after returning to Korea (Seoul) he felt as though he was not interested in Capoeira, wanted to pursue other martial art interests, and would not be coming down to our city to continue to share his Capoeira knowledge. I bought the handmade/carved berimbau and Cabaca from him for a modest sum, and no mention of Capoeira came from him for some time.

In my case, I was not really thrilled with the idea of my Capoeira training being ended, so rather than just give up and disband the group he had created, I just renamed the group into the Daegu Capoeira Cooperative, and let it be known that although I was not experienced with Capoeira (at this point I had only had about 6 months of training) I would be happy to share what little information I had, and set the mission statement as a group of people who were interested in Capoeira, to learn from and share with each other. All of the sessions from this point were FREE~ We did not have a formal instructor, all members were equal, and those with experience would freely share their knowledge with anyone..understanding that we were not an official group overseen by any legitimate organization. To be honest, I was a bit greedy in that my main motivation was a reluctance to not be able to train, and I continued the group in hopes that at the very least I would have someone to practice with and learn from.

As time went on, new members joined..some of whom had much more Capoeira experience than myself. I was fortunate in those first few weeks after taking over leadership to have a new member whom had trained for several years in Italy. His case some somewhat like mine in that he had been a part of this or that group, but then the Mestre would either close up shop, or move to another city and leave him in a position to find other instruction. Although he had been doing Capoeira for several years, he had never had a Batizado and was not tied to any group. He helped me greatly as although I was very experienced with teaching martial arts, I was not experienced enough in Capoeira to feel comfortable teaching it to new members.

In the present day, we are still a very small and humble group. At this time other than myself, there are three others who have come to the group who have varying degrees of experience..the gentleman from Italy I spoke of earlier, a native Brazilian who did Capoeira as a child and has great skill, but holds no formal rank, and a young man from California who was part of Grupo Capoeira Brazil there and holds an orange cord in their system. Together, the four of us share and rotate teaching responsibilities, having sessions twice a week (I don't like to call them classes as none of us are formal instructors). Under my leadership and with the assistance of a handful of dedicated members we now have a designed logo printed onto t-shirts for members who want them,(we got burned by Bahia-Capoeira.com who took our 400USD for pants, then closed down their website and disappeared into oblivion with our money) 2 berimbau, hold "open class" sessions bi-monthly at a downtown indie bookstore (in an attempt to attract new members), made connections and have had combined training sessions with some of the other Capoeira groups in Korea, had several articles in the local newspaper written about our group, given performances at a local church..and overall beginning to become however slightly.. a more organized unit.

With all of that background out of the way, I now more on to the part in which I hope to pick the brains of this wonderful group. Over the almost 18 months that we have been a "cooperative"..we have remained small. I never had any expectation that we would become some 100+ member group...but although he have had many people come and grow, we struggle to have members who come on a regular basis. Naturally we are in Korea, but most of the people who have joined in our sessions are foreigners..and foreigners in Korea generally have a wide variety of issues in regards to participating in activities and clubs. Many are only here for a year, others have a party lifestyle and dont wan to come to Saturday afternoon classes, still others are involved with other activities that raise a scheduling conflict...etc etc. Not everyone falls into these categories, but the fact remains that at this point although many have "liked" our facebook page and have come to at least a few classes, stay in touch with us...etc, we struggle to get these people to come regularly. A few come at least once a week, but most just kind of "pop" in maybe once or twice a month.

Because of this, and probably because of my background in martial arts and martial arts instruction, I feel a kind of "disappointment" about some members who don't come regularly, but more important, I feel disappointment that some of our members who have (although not regularly) come to more than a few classes but still cannot perform even the most basic movements. Although we are not an "official" group and do not have a formal Mestre, betweeen the 4 of us instructors, I feel that there is enough knowledge there to rule out the idea that people STILL cannot ginga correctly, or role smoothly due to a lack of experience by instructors. When I take all of the misc. factors in to try to explain to myself why some members cannot perform things they have been doing for over 8-9 sessions, I have to conclude it is because they do not come to class often enough, or otherwise do not have enough interest in Capoeira or our group to motivate them to come more often, or otherwise practice at home.

In an attempt to remedy this issue, I had the idea that we should install some type of "ranking" system. Before I go farther, let me say that I know very well that it is a kind of "taboo" or otherwise very wrong for us as a non-affiliated group with no high-ranking professors/CM..etc to give out cords. However I had the idea that if new members could see some goal, to feel some sense of accomplishment or otherwise feel that they are working for something, they may be more willing to come to class more often and participate on a more regular basis. Although we all know it is kind of petty to do ANY martial art and get gratification from gaining a new color belt/cord..etc, we all also know that these kinds of motivations play in the minds of many students. In a perfect world every martial art school/organization would be thrilled to be full of members who's only motivation was to involve themselves in the art with no concern for any type of material achievement other than their inner self, but sadly there are very few like that. Many schools have belts and then break rankings into smaller and smaller steps to continually feed this type of ego, in an effort to retain the student (whom in most cases is paying a monthly tuition, and thereby keeping the income flowing)..however in my case, since we are a totally FREE group, my motivation is to retain members so that we can begin "look" look" like other groups who have rodas with more than 8-10 people, have a full orchestra of instruments and players...etc.

So the idea I am considering is to give out plain raw/white cords to members who want them, and as they go through the levels of the curriculum the more experienced instructors have laid down,  to add colored tape to their cords to signify their advancing levels (I didnt want to be giving out full on colored cords to minimize the "taboo" spoken of earlier) In this way, the student feels they are coming to class, or otherwise practicing on their own so that they can reach that next goal (a new color on their cord)..and hopefully motivating them to take a more keen interest in Capoeira.

It should be mentioned that if in fact our little group does implement this type of system, all members would fully understand that these were not cords or otherwise colors recognized by outside organizations, and are not "official" ranks. They would all be understand that these steps were based on this groups curriculum.

Although I can guess most of the response to this idea will be negative (and in my heart I also have very mixed feelings) I would like to hear the opinions of members here concerning this/how terrible and disrespectful it might be/how insulting to others it may be, or otherwise any suggestions that others can offer that might assist me in having more success in developing a more keen interest in our group, and retaining members.

Sorry for the extremly long post

Happy Lunar New Years to you all~~~

Robert

Hey, respect for running a group so early. I haven't been training long enough to comment on a belt system although I understand your motives. more interested in the retaining students side of things, You mention some of your students after 8-9 sessions can't ginga or role smoothly and its not your fault. O.K but it unlikely to be their fault either, I have been training a few months shy of three years now and guess what my ginga isn't perfect an I've just started revisiting the `basics' to improve my role and kicks. You state you picked it up very quickly, well done(by your timeline you state excelled in about 3months, nice one! to excell in any martial art is a challenge but three months is the shortest time I've heard yet). Some of us don't however. If you want your class just to be for those guys who pick stuff up quickly go for it, but don't expect large numbers of students. If you think a student is pretty rubbish if they can't ginga or role they're going to pick up on that whether its a sudden disintrest in them on you an the other instructors part or your frustration.

 Out of curiousity when you play a beginner do you,(a) put out lots of kicks so they learn to esquiva? (b)drop into an esquiva slowly to prompt them to kick then kick at them slowly enough for them to esquiva, or (c) do you to be honest mostly get rather bored and trick round them while they try to ginga, as really ginga is the thing they need to work on the most? I've seen profs an graduados doing all three so wondered which your style was?

Good luck with the group.

Thank you for your reply. In regards to the group, I really dont have high expectations for new or existing members to perform a particular movement to perfection. I certainly with my small amount of time training am in no position to tell someone else that their ginga is not good, or this or that is not right. Its one of the things I love about Capoeira and so different from other arts that I have studied..that there is really no right or wrong way to do anything, that how many movements are performed is really based individuality and style of a given participant in many cases. What I was trying to get at when discussing that point was more about seeing students make "progress" and show improvement rather than expecting them to do any certain movement right or wrong. For example, we have one member who has been to to enough classes that she has learned Meia Lua de Frente early on...and does it in every session that she has been to, which has been close to 10. However even to this day she still has not developed the coordination or flexibility to keep her leg straight making an arch with her leg, to the point that her leg is coming up straight, but when it reaches perhaps chest height her knee bends (due to a lack of flexibility) basically making her kick look like some kind of sideways moving knee strike with the calf and foot dangling 90 degrees downward.

My issue with this is partly due to the fact that although she nor I may not be doing the kick perfectly, but in her case her kick is nowhere close. My main concern is however that if she cant do this or that kick with even a minimal amount of control and technique, that is is a recipe for her to either hurt herself, or someone else when we are doing partner drills or even a light game. To me, that issue could be solved by either her coming to class more regularly, or otherwise spending a few minutes each day working on her flexibility at home.This is exactly the reason why I hope to find a way to spurn interest in our members about wanting to be better at their Capoeira...partly for the group, partly for their/others safety, and partly because I want people to join our group and actually be better for it and get more from our sessions than social interaction.

Although I am somewhat against it, the other instructors in our group go out of their way to encourage ALL members to play in the game we have at the end of class. I understand their feeling because it is at that moment with the music playing and all the singing/clapping going on that we feel the spirit of Capoeira, and we hope to kind of "hook" those students with that group spirit,  but sometimes I feel that their almost insistence that people play (even people attending their first class) goes a bit too far in terms of putting students on the spot who may not feel comfortable yet. In any case, typically when we play a new student we follow the "a" and "b" method you mentioned. My personal opinion is that when playing someone less skilled than myself it is not proper to perform or otherwise show any movement/kick..etc in a game that the student has not been taught or otherwise seen before. New/beginner students are told to either try in a live setting whatever kicks/combinations they learned that day or in the past against an instructor who will give them opportunities for this and that, or otherwise with someone their own level and perform the techniques in a hinted way (meaning that if they are going to kick, they slap the leg they intend to kick with so their partner knows in advance the direction the kick is coming from)

One thing I should mention, is that although we are a free group and open to anyone, I pursue and work to attract new people as if we were a business. We all pretty much understand that Capoeira is SO much more fun when you have more members together. However in this case, most of the people who have come to us over these months were not people like myself who were actually seeking out Capoeira because of a pre-existing interest, but in almost all cases are people who happened to hear about us through a facebook posting, or otherwise word of mouth..and decided that it might be interesting to give Capoeira a chance. I understand that among these types of people, retaining interest will be difficult and only those most gifted and skilled as "teachers"(as opposed to those skilled with Capoeira, or any subject matter) will be the ones most successful at bringing people in and "hooking" them so to speak in something that they really had no desire for in the first place, but it is my hope that I can improve myself in this regard, and we as a group can find some way to be more successful at retaining or nurturing interest in people who come out for a session.

Does your student understand the application of the kick? With respect there seems to be a contradiction going on  here, on the one side you're saying you've not been training long enough to tell others their ginga is shit, on the other your quiet clearly feel that many of your students technique is poor. How about compramising getting the girl kicking lower as her current flexibility is obviously letting her down and doing some pad work so she understands what the kick is for? That might be a motivating factor to stretch...an she'll learn a moement pattern with a straight not bent leg which she is currently reinforcing each session.

When I say I am not in a position to tell someone they are wrong, I say it like that because of all of the instructor training I did as a taekwondo instructor. When I am teaching students, rather than say something like.."this is wrong, do it this way"..I use phrases that in some ways ease their ego and spare their pride, so I would say something like "that is a good effort, but lets try it THIS way". I learned long ago it is better not to tell someone they are wrong, but rather to try to steer them in a different direction.

She understands the purpose of the kick. I have done several drills with her, including having her try the kick at lower levels. I have even told her during training that rather than focus on hitting a head or even chest level target, just for now try to focus on keeping her leg straight, even if at knee height. When she is doing the kick in class, it is either in group warm ups (with no partner) or otherwise in partner drills where her partner will be in an esquiva (or some other low defensive posture) so that she has never really been at a point where she would be using the kick at a head height unless she were trying to do it on her own.

I dont want to keep harping on her about it though. I have told her time and time again that it could be better, that the main issue was flexibility/strength..but otherwise I am at a loss for how I can make improvements in her. In her case she comes to class once a month (we only have 8 classes in a month), and that is pretty much because most of the people in our group are also active members in the city Salsa/Bachata scene..so for her,  participation in Capoeira seems more about hanging out with friends (again with the social) rather than learning or improving her capoeira.

I should also point out that my role in the group is mainly more management/organization..while the other instructors more experienced with Capoeira share a much greater role with teaching techniques. While we do rotate class leading responsibilities, on the occasions where I have that role, my class style is much more focused on re-enforcing basics (drilling them over and over) working on the physical portion (muscle development, muscle memory, control and balance. I drill these over and over because I know our members are not practicing these at home, because we only have classes twice a week (most members cannot make both classes) and because even though I know quite a few techniques and can play a good game, I still do not feel like I am qualified (considering the experience of the other instructors) to be teaching anything new.

Ok I read hte entire post and now will attempt to process some of the problems you are having.

First, although the capoeira sessions or classes or whatever youre calling them are free, the student is paying a price....his time. So we must consider that if someones time training isnt progressive of whatever their goal is (learn capoeira Im assuming) then its a waste of their time.

Now if Im one of your students and my goal is to learn capoeira and I realize that:

a. Youre not a Mestre/CM/Professor/Monitor

b. You have never had any formal training under any particular grupo.

c. You have no long term/substantial training period.

d. You have no structure in your academy.

e. You have no capoeira "roots" or lineage to any formal grupo.

f. etc etc etc.

If I as a student realize any of this, I either stop frequenting your grupo, or if my motive is to socialize and make connections (as you have done yourself) then I will show up maybe once a month, solidify my connection with the only capoeira group around, do whatever little I remember from our last session the month before, which I havent practiced at all and go home feeling accomplished...looking forward to "hanging out" again next month.

So the problem here is literally "the blind leading the blind". After even a year of capoeira how do you know your queixada, armada, role, or even au is perfect? I mean you are teaching this to others. Our professor at least once a month attends classes with his mestre, where Im sure he not only learns more but also improves and corrects skill which he is teaching us. This assures that the capoeira we are learning under our Mestre is at least in check.

I drive an hour to my academy about 4 times a week, (I know its crazy, my gas bill is probably higher then my capoeira dues. lol), last year there was advertisement of a capoeira club about 15 minutes drive from me, they charged almost nothing under the notion that the academy was at the beach and a park and thus no building rent, electric bills, etc...the only catch they said was that the class might get cancelled every once in a while or moved to a covered area.....I thought man thats brilliant!!!! Youre telling me I get to practice capoeira in nature, pay very little and drive like 15 minutes? Sign me up.

It turned out to be a similar scheme you got going, students with very little knowledge, teaching others under no guidance from a Mestre/CM/Monitor etc, under no lineage whatsoever.

I knew I was in trouble when I asked "What do you guys teach, Angola, Regional or Contemporary?" which I asked 3 times because the answer I kept getting was "We teach capoeira."

After checking them out for their "Free first class." I put my tail between my legs and went back to my academy promising myself Id never speak of this again....lol.

NOW THE SOLUTION

Do yourself a favor, tell every registered student (assuming you have a registration list) and tell them to come to a mandatory meeting) those who show up you know are serious, the others you can do without. Tell them if they are willing to pay a fee for capoeira classes from a Mestre/CM/Monitor etc.

Then contact the closest Mestre/CM/Monitor and offer them the cash as compensation for the drive/travel once a month.

Then at this point you can have cordas (the right way, not just tape in their corda crua), and everyone gets to learn from someone who can teach.

BAD IDEAS

Adding tape to the corda - do you really want people who have never seen or heard of capoeira to think that adding tape to the corda is mainstream?

Inexperienced "Teachers" - Do you really want your students to think that what they are learning is capoeira, only to later find out that what they learned is wrong when they learn from a proper instructor?

Sorry if this post sounds negative, but being that youre the only capoeira representative group in the area means that your whole surrounding area will look at you and your grupo as the capoeira authority when it takes years for an individual to reach a lever where he can teach.

Good luck in whatever path you choose to follow.

Axe.

I was further thinking of your post when I thought of a question.

You traveled to a different country to learn from professionals, true masters of martial arts. You must have an appreciation of how important a master is.

You also should understand the effort, struggle, sacrifice and dedication it takes to reach a level where one can shift some energy from learning into teaching. Its a huge responsibility.

Lennon is going to criticize me for this (I know you are buddy.) but in your situation, when theres no possible way to find grupos in your area maybe...*gulp...learning from a video isnt a bad idea.....there I said it!

Buy a few videos, and learn as much as you can, just for the love of god try not to teach with videos.

One must first be a student, before he can be a mestre.

Axe.

How far are you from Seoul?

Get in contact with my man Inst. Zumbi.. he has full classes and would probably consider something with you.  tell him Manhoso said whats up

http://www.cdoseoul.com/

Thank you Panda for giving your input and suggestions.

First, let me say that I have never claimed that my kicks were anything close to perfect, and in fact have tried to make it very clear that I do not consider myself proficient in any regard. That is probably a bit of an underestimation of my abilities on my part, because while my kicks may not be exactly and technically Capoeira-style "perfect", the fact is that I have been kicking for near 25 years..so while I try my best to not tout my abilities, I must concede that as far as kicking is concerned, I dont have difficulties at all.

With that said, I will point out that I I do not "teach" much of anything. As mentioned in my last post, my role is mostly organizational. I do help re-enforce what the other more experienced instructors have taught over time, but I myself do not teach much of anything that would be completely new to a student.

While I wholeheartedly appreciate your input, I kind of resent your reference to what we have going on here as a "scheme" in your comparison to the other group you mentioned. (I may have taken that the wrong way..and if so, my apologies) Anyone who gets involved with us knows up front what we are about (It is all over our facebook page that we are a "cooperative", that there is no formal teacher, and that we are simply people who have an interest in, or want to learn more about Capoeira) I have tried very hard to be sure not to present ourselves as anything more than that..and although naturally we are lacking in that we do not have any high-ranking people to oversee us..I do not think we fit the label of a "scheme" (which to me implies someone is purposely trying to fool or present themselves as something they are not)

As far as charging fees, that is simply out of the question, mainly because we are all foreigners here in Korea..meaning it would be completely illegal and result in possible fines, jail term, and certain deportation to make money outside of our visa status. We are fortunate enough to have secured two locations to hold class free of charge (a YMCA, and a university sports facility) Believe me, I would LOVE to cut out nearly everyone who was not actually coming out and participating. In fact, I used to delete people from our facebook group who joined the facebook group, but never came to a class. After all of my years of various martial arts training, I am a bit of a hardass on this kind of issue. However even though I do not care for those kinds of people, I came to the conclusion that it would be more beneficial to the group to relax on my personal views. We are a "cooperative" and even though I took over leadership and have done alot of groundwork, I do not make executive decisions, and changes that affect the group are discussed and decided upon by the members of the group who actually showed up and were part of that discussion.

I have considered bringing in outside instruction on a "workshop" type basis. However there are no Mestres in Korea, and the head members of those groups would charge a huge amount of money (probably several hundred dollars for just a few hours) to conduct such a workshop. We have done this before with the "monitor" I spoke of in the OP who originally began this group, but the turnout was low, and I ended up paying quite a bit just to cover his transportation and lodging fees just so that he broke even and did not actually lose money for making the trip. This poerson has had a change of heart concerning Capoeira over the following months, and I am currently in the works to possibly have him get more involved with the group (and possibly secure oversight/support) from is group back in England. In this regard, point taken :)

In regards to the tape..I hear you on that. I also think it seems kind of cheesy, but I thought that it would be a cheap option (rather than asking a student to pay the price for a new colored cord) and somehow minimize the negative perception we may get by handing out cords altogether.

As far as inexperienced instructors, there is nothing I can really do about this other than to simply do away with the group. While our instructors are not professors, CM's...etc, I feel they are experienced enough (in regards to their own capoeira skill) to teach up to their own level..although concede that they may not have experience enough to be effective "teachers" The only other option would be to simply give up.

But I cannot give up. Although we are still and always have been small, we have had a few very dedicated members who came out to out classes every time (even in the middle of summer when it was 35 celcius with no AC, and in the dead of winter wearing 3 layers of clothing, hats and gloves in a non-heated room) Those members are no longer with us as they have moved on from Korea to the next leg in their life journey, but all of them went back to their home country and joined Capoeira groups there...continuing on with an interest and dedication that they found with our little group here in Korea. It is people like that and that spreading of Capoeira that prevent me from just giving up on our group. Inexperienced instructors or not, I am of the opinion that even crappy Capoeira is better than none at all. The only other Capoeira available here is in Seoul (quite far from here) so although we are not the ideal choice by any means for Capoeira instruction..we simply do the best we can with the tools we have.

I appreciate your input and thoughts. If you have any others, please feel free to share~

When I said scheme I meant the particular way you are doing things.  Since money isnt really exchanging hands it could hardly be called a "money scheme" or "fraud".

As far as issues you may encounter I wont even pretend to know what the issue with Inst. Zumbi is so I am NOT speaking about that. I will say tho that if there are capoeira academies near you they might resent you, think of it in these terms:

You been practicing Taekwondo since you were a child, now you are training formally in S. Korea, after all these years and dedication to the art you open a Taekwondo Academy.

Down the street a guy who trained Taekwondo for "a few months" and decides to open a cooperative.

Think of the implications, there you are trying to teach using all your years of learning and formal training and a guy down the road wants to "teach" after a few months of training. Even if you are the kindest person and decide "Meh good for him" part of you will think "Is he a good representation of what a Taekwondo instructor should be?"

I do say "teach" because someone has to be teaching it....someone has to be the leader, the one everyone looks to in order to learn.

Even if your highest ranking student/instructor/coop member will only teach up to his rank as you stated (actually it would be impossible for him to train higher then his rank anyways) youre still forgetting that part of being a monitor (the lowest rank in capoeira that can teach under a mestre) involves learning how to teach capoeira, its not like a baker simply passing his recipy to someone else, you have to teach them how to cook said recipy.

Ok you stated your highest color cord in your cooperative is Orange Cord from Grupo Capoeira Brasil. Im assuming youre referring to Indio Anton. As an orange corda he would still have alot to learn, he wouldnt even start learning to teach for another two cordas so even if you do a batizado a year he would be 3 years from being a monitor and teach under the direct guidance of a mestre for a long while before teaching independently.

It may seem like Im being insensitive and even rude, but you have to understand capoeira academies have a certain standard.

Im sure you guys are having fun, if thats the goal then by all means.

I see some people using cordas, I hope they were issued by mestres.

And please try not to give in to the temptation of issuing cordas, its an honor reserved for mestres who, as the name stated, mastered the art.

If the case was to train a few months and start issuing cordas or even belts Id be a Kung Fu master by next May.

As to your original question, if you issued corda crua to your students and tying tape to it would offend the capoeira community, I stated my own opinion in my posts but if you want concrete evidence go to some of the more popular grupos websites, and email their mestres asking them that question, they are our mestres and will be able to give a response.

Axe.

 arrrrr o.k I understand your frustration. If I was the instructor I would still get her doing pad work, 2 reasons, first as a dancer whatever you say its unlikely to sink in that she needs to kick to strike unless she has to do it a lot, also in my experience dancers tend to get jumpy when it dawns on them capeoira has martial aspects, she might clear off, oh an I would also make contact with her in the roda and not esquiva unless she kicked effectively even if very low(but the last probably illustrates why I'm not a teacher, no patience with people who won't acknowledge the martial side of things  ). How about instead of belt tags you do certificates in the same way gymnasts do. Have a list of techniques and a brief explanation of what doing each tech requires at each level. Everyone has a year to reach level one (all the kicks legs fairly straight plus a low cartwheel and being able to kick up into (but not maintain) a handstand maybe) If they can't do it in a year they can't continue training as they need to put their energy into it as well as you.

@Panda - I understand your points and I feel the same concerning how others in the Capoeira community may feel about what we are doing..this is exactly the reason I wanted feedback from others involved with Capoeira before implementing anything. I do not take your comments as negative, and truly appreciate your feedback. Anton is the only REGULAR member of our group who has been given a cord. Assuming you saw our page you may have seen a few others wearing cords. One of those is the "monitor" I spoke of in the original post, who has over the time since taking over this group warmed back up to Capoeira, moved back to this city..and pops in from time to time to train..he wears a green cord. I and he are actually recently in discussions of him coming in and taking on a leadership role, getting formal permission to teach from his home group, but that is an ongoing process that involves students paying for class however, which brings us back to the visa issue and the illegality of making money. Noone else in our group has ever worn or has been given a cord..and any others you may have seen in our pictures with a cord other than the two mentioned above were from the Muzenza group up in Seoul who happened to be near our city that particular weekend and joined in on our open class at the bookstore.

I do not think we ruffle the feathers of any other groups. There are only 3 that I know of, two of whom have been in contact with us/helped us or otherwise given advice in one form or another. We have not been in contact with Zumbi's group, but I do not think that he would have any serious issue or otherwise resent what we are doing, but again that is just speculation.

I like the certificates idea, and actually I was thinking something similar, and discussed it with our members yesterday. The space we use for our Saturday sessions is an exercise hall on the campus of a nearby university where the Taekwondo and Gumdo clubs of that university practice. The Taekwondo guys have a kind of chart on the wall that is more or less like an attendance sheet, but each member has a kind of number that denotes their rank within the club..mostly based on age and participation in club activities. I was thinking of doing something very similar to that.

However the reasons I was considering cords are several fold. First, I was/am looking for a way to give our members some type of visable/material satisfaction. Secondly, as you have seen our pictures you know that basically we all kind of look like a rag-tag Capoeira group with no matching uniforms, no cords..etc. Personally this is not really important to Capoeira at all, but from a marketing perspective (appealing and hoping to attract new members) I feel in some ways that if we "looked" more like other Capoeira groups, people may feel that we are a more stable group (When I say group, I don't mean just as a Capoeira group, but a sports activity group in general)

@Lennon - Thanks for your input as well. I will continue to come up with methods in an attempt to make this particular student realize on her own, or otherwise "feel" how the movement could be done better.

no probs, good luck. Glad you liked the certificates idea.  An if you want a uniform how about a group t-shirt rather than a belt.

I do like the certificates, and after the discussion here and some consideration, I am liking the idea of certificates in conjunction with some type of "necklace" to give members, something that would be in various colors and like the taekwondo club I mentioned, be more about acknowledging active participation in the club as well in some small part their ability in Capoeira. I think this may be a happy medium to giving something to the students that denotes their status to others, while at the same time not going too far out of the traditions concerning cords.

As far as uniforms..we have had shirts for quite some time, and had an order in for pants as well. Sadly the website we chose mentioned in the OP (whom we had in the previous year ordered pants and other supplies from before with no problems) chose this summer to close up shop after taking our money.  :(

Thanks again to you Lennon and Panda for your input.

Certificates are fine, however it wont accomplish what you are looking for (take that Arch Namesis) I got a better idea.

When you said necklaces it got me thinking:

1. You need uniforms...period! - This needs to be all white abadas (maybe with logo on hip area) and a white t-shirt (maybe with your coop logo on it).

2. New members can be without uniform for their first month, then uniforms.

3. Those who wear cordas shouldnt. I know they earned them in previous academies but its like when a regional joins an angola group, new group new rules no cords.

4. You can do necklaces and bracelets. The necklaces and bracelets match, Im thinking wooden beads and after each wooden bead you can place a few pieces of crushed shells died in different colors. I would stick with all solid color rankings ie: New (white shells) / First Rank (yellow shells) / Second Rank (orange shells) / Third Ranks (Green Shells) / Fourth Rank (Blue Shells) / Fifth Rank (Purple Shells) / Sixth Rank (Black Shells).

Heres a picture of what Im talking about.

This would be the Blue Rank Necklace.

Lennon its cords....not belts.....sheesh..lol.

Good Luck.

Axe.

I make shell necklaces and bracelets like that to match my cordas. Im weird like that.

Usually I like to add wood beads to it, make more eathy and natural looking.

Axe.

Actually Panda, that is pretty much exactly the type of necklace I had envisioned!

I totally agree about the uniforms, but we decided in the beginning that although we would have t-shirts (we have our design printed on white or black t-shirts) that in regards to pants we would allow more freedom of expression from our members. As a cooperative, we all had a say in the choice, and some wanted white, some wanted green with yellow stripes, some wanted orange and blue stripes, others plain black...etc. The site we used have several designs, and those that did not either get white or black all agreed to go at the very least with the same color "design" and then each member choose the colors they wanted.

In fact I really like the idea of this type of open cooperative, but lately I am beginning to feel that we need a more firm hand in regards to leadership. While the premise is good, part of me feels that is some decisions need to be made for the group and certain standards met. As you mention it would be better if we were all wearing matching uniforms, and up until now I never insisted on it or otherwise pushed the issue because I was concerned about driving away people from the group. However since we are struggling to have people come on a regular basis anyway, I am now thinking that there really isnt much to lose by insisting people conform to group standards in regards to uniforms.

i apologize if anything i say has been said  or if some of the things im going to say is harsh i hope you find it more constructive. im reading this from a phone and wanted to give my perspective.

I believe the first step is getting a uniform, with abadas....Street pants are nice, but during class anyone who is part of the group needs to look the part. That will help bring some legitamcy to your organization, if at the very least the illusion of it. I think you should contact the other group even though you said you dont think zumbi would want to help you out.  IF you dont ask you will never know, and what is the worst that happens he says no then your back at square one and if he says he wants to help you well then you have a mestre or atleast someone to talk things over with  as well as someone who eventually you could get rank under snad start the club under him.  since you have experiences in other martial arts he might even be willing to give you a higher rank and his blessing to teach as long as you have the knowledge to do so, i say this because for all intensive purposes you need a mestre or someone you can associate with a group its a fact that lineage is important in capoeira and most other martial arts. without that lineage you cannont honestly give  cordao or corda to students or even certificate with out sending a message of disrespect, and i believe this would hinder your growth, since you have no legitamcy in terms of a school or organization.  you would for all intensive purposes you  would be giving them something that you dont have the authority to give, so if you have no "offical" organization, keep it a club. you dont want to insult anyone or group by giving something you yourself havent earned yet. it also doesnt matter what rank your teachers are because they arent, they are still students. That might sound harsh but im not trying to. I also agree with panda when i believe he said that people who have rank in other schools unless they intend on going back or training with that groupo should not wear their corda if they are teaching for you,

I say this becasue when someone see another person with rank espically beginners those people are immediatly put in higher regard then other people, let their game and knowledge speak for themselves, i dont know how their mestres would feel about them teaching some might care some might not but in all actuality when they wear that corda they are a representation of that group. again some people might get insulted and rub you off in terms of training. now another thing about rank capoeira didnt have formal ranks for a long time as im sure you know. so this mentality doesnt need to even be part of your group since its a club and not a school or academy.  i help instruct a college class that i am part of, so some ideas to get people interested would be taking "dues" for the club, no matter how small or large people want to pay for things, if they dont pay most people wont tank it seriously or feel that they have a need to attend because they have no investment in it other than time, i dont know the exact laws but charging a 5 dollar due a month would eventually give you the cash to bring someone in for a workshop, or even take donations and tell them exactly what those are for. Necklace idea is good, but again you dont want to make it about rank, becasue it would be a lie. besides what system would you follow, beira mar? senzala? volta au mundo? CDO? a combination?

after writing all of this i just saw that you have been in talks with an instructor to take the leadership role, that would be great for your group.

TL:DR

get uniforms

stay away from visual representations of rank since you are a club and have no affiliation to a group you shouldnt market yourself as something your not and even if the person with rank is teaching classes that person is still a student and is in his own learning process.

Dues consider them because if you get a mestre or instructor they might not ask to be paid but it is always nice to give someone something for their time.

and again i hope this was constructive and not all negative.

I am in Japan, Kyushu.  I went to Pusan last year on vacation with my wife.  I have connections to two groups in Korea.  One man is in Seoul, a Korean man, is actually a TaeKwanDo(sp) teacher.  He teaches Capoeira as well.  He came to Japan and I met him, great guy.   He is in the group Energia Da Bahia.  His Mestre (a Brazilian) is in Australia, visits Japan (has a group here) and Korea.  He speaks English fluently. I think being a Tae Kwon Do person yourself you would hit it off great with him, then again maybe you are rivals in TKD I don't know.  Both the Mestre and Korean man teaching in Seoul are really nice people and great Capoeiristas.  Great athletes.  Your jaw will drop at the athleticism of the mestre.  He won contests in Brazil when he was a kid (him and his brother).  if you like tricking, you will like his floreios.

I strongly suggest you to go through internet/facebook to find the Energia Da Bahia group in Korea and his Mestre In Australia.

contact me if you would like.  My regular email is @hotmail.com same as my sign on name here.  Get connected wtih a mestre and good teachers.  There is a little study gropu in Pusan as well.  I follow their facebook.  Oh also I should be meeting the teacher of CDO in Seoul soon, he is going to visit Japan and so far my plan is to attend teh workshops.  never met him but CDO people are good people too.  Great beautiful Capoeira and a presence in Korea.

If you are interested in Angola that is another place I can introduce you to teachers, or offer my own if you have money.  It sounds like you are looking for more moderna Capoeira and less expensive and closer/easier option.  For this reason I recommend you frist reach out within Korea.

Nothing wrong with a bunch of peopel who like Capoeira getting together and tryign to get something gonig.  If you want to lead and help that group though, help yourself, get legit with your own teachers.  If you are the best guy in town the temptation is just to become teh teacher with a new system, its simpler for you.  Like the guys that have the humilty to submit to your teachings even though you are not a mestre, you should show the humility to find a mestre.  You have lots of options.  Its better for everyone.  It may be harder.  But with work comes reward.

BTW I would love to visit Pusan or Daegu again.  If you want someone to come in town and teach some Angola I can help out.  I will be inviting my professor to Japan in June.  IF you would like to visit japan and learn some Angola, hit me up.  The Beetle between Pusan and Fukuoka runs about $70.  Or you can look for cheap flights in the $100 range.  Maybe bring a crew.  Energia people come to Japan from Seoul sometimes and Japanese go there.  CDO looks to be building similary Korea-Japan bridges. 

As you probably notice there is a history of conflict between Korea and Japan but the younger generations just love the shit out of eachother, literally.  They are like long lost twin brothers.

-ase Shiffd

 Hit me up offline (haven't checked my email yet, maybe you already emailed me)

and I'm on facebook.  We can connect there.

I will do what I can to help you guys out.

sooooo what happened? Can't leave a story halfway through. You still teachin solo coralreefer?

Nah. I was never teaching solo except for the first few weeks between the corded instructor who started the group back in 2010 but left that summer, and the new guy from Europe who came to Korea and joined shortly afterward. At this point everything is pretty much the same. I have had some discussions with the senior members concerning the issues discussed here, and all are pretty much in agreement with the ideas presented and offered by previous posters.involved with what we are doing..(thank goodness)

A few weeks ago we held an "open class" at a local Indie bookstore in which we successfully introduced at least a tiny bit of Capoeira to maybe 30-40 people, and this past weekend most of our senior members traveled to a nearby city to participate in an informal batizado held for two of our former students who recently began training in a new Capoeira group held on the military base there (the male of that couple is a military contracted civilian, so he was already living on the base, which is why they began training with them)

So for now...we are just moving along. This time of year tends of be slow because it is the vacation season for university students (one of our classes are held on a university campus) and many others who are in Korea as English teachers are finishing contracts and leaving the country, partying before leaving...traveling around S.E. Asia before leaving...etc. Also since we are a free group and I have negotiated free use of various facilities which happen to be non-heated...some folks just don't want to come out and do capoeira in a cold exercise hall wearing several layers of clothes...etc.

In short...we are just doing the best we can with the circumstances we have...but are making small steps and strides to integrate with the other groups. Of note, at least several of our members are planning to attend a seminar held later this year hosted by CDO in Seoul in which Mestre Acordeon will be the premier guest.

fight the damn spam!