Far too often I see capoeira advertised as a martial art...which it is. Far too often I see it practice as anything but "martial". I see it practiced with a 100% emphasis on combining all of the other amazing benefits that it has for our health, our social lives, our spirits, our bodies, our personal energy, our culture, our music, our happiness. All of which I applaud mightily. Under NO circumstances should any of this nor the other benefits that come from capoeira and in ANY WAY be comprised or minimized.

However, far too many capoeiristas are merely health and social enthusiasts. Almost none of them even know that they should live up to the mighty examples set by Zumbi dos Palmares, Besouro, Gigante, Mestres Pastinha and Bimba (mighty warriors both who from all accounts defeated many practitioners of other martial arts) and the many thousands more gallant men women and children warriors who history has failed to specifically name but whom history has wholly embraced as capoeiristas. Even worse than NOT following the examples of our capoeira ancestors is the fact that most of us have no clue as to who our warrior capoeira ancestors are. We don't even viscerally connect the words "self-defense" and "legendary fighting martial art with unrivalled guile street cred and skill" with the word "capoeira" in any meaningful way. Worst of all? Many of us wholeheartedly buy into the fiction and support the idea that capoeira is wholly noncombative, entirely for play fitness flirting and fun and not at all designed for or purposed toward self defense. This is worse than a tragedy, this is the certain proof that the vital warrior power of capoeira will eventually die out and capoeira itself will pass away or become a wholly soulless mockery of not even a shell of itself. The closest that most schools and organizations get to actual self-defense with capoeira is more intricate movements in the roda...and that's akin to spontaneous music accompanied shadowboxing. It's fun vigorous gets you into shape and lifts the spirits...but it's of no consistently significant reliable benefit when the proverbial fhit hits the shan,as it were.

You can go to a cardio kickboxing or boxing school and ask anybody there to name a famous person who does what they do....and can fight iwth it. Whether or not the specific practitioner you asked is interested in fighting with the discipline they practice or using it for self defense,they know it could be done and they learn how to do so. Even the most sheltered and noncombative of these fitness aficionados can name names from Billy Blanks to Muhammad Ali to Pacquiao to Mayweather regarding their chosen fitness or self-defense style. Go to capoeira schools worldwide and the most famous name you will run across is...EDDIE GORDO. Most capoeiristas don't even know that he most feared MMA fighter in the world--ANDERSON THE SPIDER SILVA--is a seasoned capoeirista holding the rank of yellow cord.And at least half of those wholly noncombative entirely without self-defense curriculum schools and groups will tell you and their mestres will profess with a smile on their faces that capoeira isn't for fighting--which is NOT true--and that one should study capoeira for peace and harmony and spiritual balance,physical fitness fun and socializing (which are important parts of capoeira). What most of these capoeira mestres fail to understand is that since they themselves almost always have zero self-defense skill with capoeira, that doesn't mean that there are NO self defense skills to be had via capoeira. What it means in our humble opinion is that mestres shouldn't become mestres or even close to formados without the ability to rigorously defend themselves using capoeira vs all comers.The truth is that you CAN FIGHT EXTREMELY WELL V ANY STYLE with capoeira and there SHOULD BE a mandatory street fighting hardcore self-defense aspect of capoeira that is every bit as valuable as the music, the songs, the rodas, the culture, etc. For without the power brilliance penetrating intellect guile and independence of the capoeira warrior steeped in malicia, capoeira would have long ceased to exist. It would have been stamped and razed into the bloody earth of history hundreds of years past never to be found and forever to be lost amidst the tears and horrors of slavery.

In my opinion, every single capoeira group should also practice mandatory self-defense and convey the warrior aspects of capoeira's history to its players. This is an indispensable part of saving capoeira's soul,imho. I know that others have mentioned the self-defense aspects of capoeira in the past. I know that as recently as a few years ago, a movement started which culminated in THE WORLD FIGHT...which is and was a TERRIFIC idea...occurred and apparently fizzled out for lack of support and/or monetary issues. I can't help but think that had capoeira continued to cultivate warrior capoeiristas as we had done in the old days,the WORLD FIGHT would be a phenomenon now and eagerly embraced...and capoeira's legacy and vibrant reality as an unequaled discipline for warriors from the distant past to the infinitely far flung future would be beyond question. We from THE ATACX GYM QUILOMBO will not only build upon that momentum with our small but rapidly growing core of adherents in Long Beach California, we will go beyond that. We will also bring capoeira warriors to compete in other tournaments and most importantly spread the love and joy and power of capoeira as all of us here on this site and around the world continue to do.

This is my first day on this site. I will make it a point to regularly show instructional videos that essentially reverse engineer the noncombative dance that too much of capoeira has become into the fearsome fighting style that terrified slavers and corrupt politicians for centuries and add the modern twist to it. I will show how I've used it against muay thai kickboxers and all other strikers,I will show where capoeira has genuine ground grappling groundfighting and submission techniques and not only trace their origins but call them by their names. I will show how the floreios--now reduced to crowd hyping flowery movements devoid of all purpose and meaning--were originally devastatingly effective, practical fighting techniques.All at once, we will be able to preserve the beauty and art of capoeira without at any time and in any way devaluing and watering down capoeira's magnificent fighting power and its history as literally being the most feared and most documented fighting system of the oppressed vs the oppressors...and the only one where the oppressors themselves acknowledge that the oppressed WIN.

Please support our blog and our youtube videos under ATACX GYM CAPOEIRA. I will leave links for both within my profile and signature a little later today if the options exist on this site. I intend to demonstrate on video a sequence of attacks that I recently used in the kickboxing gym and the hapkido and judo gyms with great success and leave links on this site for the videos in question...and we should have the videos done by no later than mid-week. We hope to count upon your support, your viewership, and your commentary! Whatever you wish to say would be greatly appreciated and embraced without malice...although you may expect at least some malicia.LOL. We mean no capoeirista anywhere any disrespect. Our capoeira may not be your capoeira...but all capoeira is all of our capoeira. I would guess that we all practice capoeira and love it for our own reasons. Hopefully we can support one another as a natural outgrowth and expression of our mutual love of capoeira. Any comments, suggestions,and criticisms are welcome.

With malicia...

...HEAD COACH RAS OF THE ATACX GYM QUILOMBO

Welcome Brother...

I agree with many points you make, however what you are projecting is not for everyone. As a matter of fact it is the fighter who understands capoeira that is able to use it for combat. No matter the training, some people just revert to the good 'ol one-two (hands,boxing). I have been to a Roda where too professors got heated got up and started boxing each other. Well I guess that can be capoeira too.

The soul of capoeira is connected to an energia that cannot be actually compartmentalized; so it needs to saving, if it has to adapt to dance then that is what its response to where its sees itself. For combat it will change again, at least this is what I have come to understand; in these times it is here as what i needs to be and hence the issue in my first paragraph.

Welcome again

So to cut a long (very long. WAY too freaking long) story short, your 'humble' opinion is that most mestres shouldn't be mestres? Because they aren't gnarly dudes who kick everyone's asses? Riiiiiiiight............... I take it then that you yourself are a mestre in order to cast such strong judgement? Or at the very least Brazilian? Or have trained extensively in Brazil? Could I be so presumptuous as to ask your lineage in capoeira? As in, which group did you learn through?

Look, I'm squarely in the 'capoeira as a fight' camp, and have been defending it as such here for, literally, years. Your post however comes off as a little too cobra kai for my liking. I mean, really? 'mandatory street fighting hardcore self defense aspect of capoeira'. REALLY? Most of us don't need 'street fighting' cred - that kinda phased out with puberty. Do you guys wear black cut down pants?

SWEEP THE LEG JOHNNY!

I would be very interested to see your videos. I agree capoeira is a fighting art. However from what I have seen of it its effectiveness lies in superb timing so that the fight looks beautiful effortless and smooth (all trademarks of all the capoeira I've seen) To achieve this timing and beauty seems to require at least 10 years or so training. I am very curious how your students of say 1-2yrs training will use it as an effective martial art that is still capoeira. Capoeira is unique. to make it a straight stand up fight (martelo, pisao), etc would be easy, but its beauty and what makes it capoeira imho would be lost. I anticipate videos of both yourself and your students applying your capoeira.  

Let me help you

...welcome too man, I will argue he is Brazilian, I will argue he has strong points, I will argue that the "science" behind capoeira lays with its practitioner. If you believe it is combative, that is for you. If you believe it is a dance that is also for you too. Unfortunately it cannot be force fed to people

When you argue traditionally capoeira used far more strikes including hand strikes and throws than it does today if those bits are put back in to the modern version is it still capoeira?. I'm asking as british boxings predecessor bareknuckle fighting/pugalism also included wrestling and apparently ducking lower than the opponents waist to avoid a blow, these were banned as the sport began to aquire rules and become basically modern boxing. If the throws and low dodges got put back in would it still be boxing? I think your video is great btw and shows what I have always felt is the potential for inverted moves to be used as unexpected strikes, I'd like to see it used in situ, ie during a fight, do you have any vids of you using capoeira in a fight?.

I will take a shot at this briefly...

Capoeira as you and I know it on the surface is very limited for a fight in which the other pugilist can indeed fight...I personally think the beauty at least from a traditional standpoint is its "underhandedness". The art has really no book for rules; so adding or subtracting will be based on traditions, lineage and individual within reason. The game played in the roda while it has deeper connotations is a game* not even sparring to be honest or perhaps sparring within the context of other things than fight. Fighting has different dimension imo, the capoeira "we know" provides attributes for "readiness" for a fight...eg cardiovascular, relaxing, breathing, positioning eg closing distance (mind you these are just its characteristics) etc, etc not the FIGHT itself...the philosophy appears more defensive than offensive, hence striking maybe another matter. Now having said that...as an individual your job if one cares to use capoeira in a fight is to learn the principle of a movemento. I think before a lot of these movements became "standards" there had more intensions and reasons; in any regard, we can theorize about its fighting aspect all day only fighters will be able to develop strikes or counter strikes thru experience...lol hence the topic

Look we move in gradients of circles playing capoeira to keep flow...an opponent may or may not know this,  fighting revolves around been straight to the point...positivas, straight punches, chaotic no flow etc capoeira seems like a contradiction to fighting; however underneath lies the other part of capoeira; as an analogy to get a grasp of my point please take the time to read on Tai chi chuan...very, very relatable...

Yes we are only dancing...take the time to look at Carioca for example!!

Oh, mother of god, another one want's to put capoeira upside down and change everything :) :) :) I think you should consider few things, because I see your enthusiasm though I think you see only white and black when there's a lot of gray between.

At first I would like to say it's only my opinion. You see, you called names of great capoeira legends - Mestre Bimba, Zumbi etc. And I mean it - LEGENDS. I don't want to ruin any of those images, but I think - as every legend - there's a lot of things that are beatiful, but nobody is interested in checking what was true or false. But those legends are good, because they inspire people like you to do more and better capoeira. Together with Eddy Gordo they are all great capoeira PR - countless amounts of people started capoeira because of Zumbi, Eddy or Only the strong. But none of this does not go along with our reality.

100% of us are amateurs. We train capoeira hard, we train other stuff, workout at gym, we swim, run, do everything for capoeira - but it's still recreation, still fun, even if we're instructors or really good players - it's still not a lot when compared to real pro sportsmen (at olympics for example). Why? Because there is no one aim in capoeira. There's a lot of aims, but not one main. You could be a fighter, a dancer, a singer, a musician, but you can't be one of them and leave others, cause you will stop being capoeirista. Everybody has his own free will, so you can't say that someone should not be a mestre if he's not good at self-defence - because he had chosen music etc.

Self-defence is another thing. I don't train mma, I don't fight in cages. I tried, it's cool, but it's just not my way (now). Should I consider myself as inable to defend myself? Preparing yourself for street fighting is quite easy when you train capoeira, because most of streetfights are really easy. 20% of them are such hardcore that even being an top UFC fighter or having a gun won't help you - you could try to run or it's not your lucky day. All the rest are easy fights, when you need mainly to run outnumbered or to defend yourself using easy non technical skills that capoeira provides. You probably will get involved in 5-20 event of this kind in your life. So - why to focus on this? You want to be prepared? Buy a gun or die trying to proove capoeira is the best.

I don't consider capoeira in UFC/MMA matches, because as long as methods of training capoeira will not suit cross-training, as long as you will not train a lot of ground game (which is a great skill but it argues with fundamental capoeira rule - feet, head, hands on the ground only) , as long as you won't fight MMA style at capoeira trainings - it makes no sense. Anybody who want's to implement full capoeira jogo into ring would be an idiot in my opinion, trying to do half capoeira - half mma (like Muzenza full contact games which were won by guy throwing only bencao's and martelos to others doing au or rabo de arraia) is neither one nor another.

It works both ways - ask your mma/muay thai friend to play in roda. Boxing, karate, mma gives you a good fundamentals to play capoeira. But that's all, even Aranha is not a GOOD capoeira player. You know why? Because he don't practice. Capoeiristas don't practice contact fight. (I don't consider people training simultanously other martial arts).

It's good to provide people really hard physical training based on capoeira. But what I would to say - increasing only this skill is not increasing capoeirista skills.

If I would be asked : 'what's the reason of developing capoeira' my answer would be 'it was developed to defend MINDS' - capoeira learns how to live, how to train, how to cope with problems. It learned and keeped strong slaves, it could learn people how to FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE nowadays. That's why capoeira is MARTIAL ART. We could try to improve it, to change it, we discuss it but it will be always above us. But I feel pain anytime when people look at it only in context of full contact fighting and say - it's a crap.

Most of the things that go down in a roda are watered down to be in a fight. I think at least from the tradition in which I study, a capoeirista is a technician not a brawler; Ok so this is not a fight but it comes the closest I think www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSUDLotAEzI#t=8m38s Uma greve! then there is this www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtaOxs-GyHo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL51ADA84F19CA2A07#t=0m02s inesperado!! brawling we don't have chance...

I think the latest video at abeiramar.tv is quite fitting in this topic. Mestre Toni Vargas discusses the "brincando" part of Bahian capoeira, as opposed to the more fighting oriented styles of Rio and Receife.

http://www.abeiramar.tv/video/1476/sobreviver-brincando-

Part of what I like about capoeira is that it can be many things and take on many forms.  Sometimes it's just a game or a past time that people do for themselves.  Can the fight exist there?  Sure, and sometimes it does.  Depending on the roda, maybe there's more room for the fight or less.  Sometimes it's a show or a performance, something done for spectators to watch.  Is there room for a fight there?  Not really.  Then sometimes people really want to train to fight and capoeira can be that too.  I have a couple of friends who are capoeiristas that have entered cage fights and won.  If that's what you want to do and that's your cup of tea, great.  If not, that's okay too.  There really IS room for all of these things in capoeira.  How do I know?  Because it already exists and continues to exist in capoeira.  Diversity is cool.  If you choose not to enter a cage fight or to train like that, that's cool too.

ATACXGYMCAPOEIRA, Welcome!  I am also in LA!

I think that part of the point is that if "we" claim Capoeira a "Martial Art" or Martial Science" then we need to be able to back it up as a Martial Science.  My motto is that "if you don't know the principles behind the movements then you are just 'playing' capoeira"...  Capoeira is more than just a game.  If people only practice it for the game then that is cool but we should not claim it as a Martial Art if we don't know how to use it as such.  I have heard some say that they don't teach the combat, they only teach the dance.  But I don't believe that there is a "martial dance" without the "martial Art".

I think that it is all about the applications.  Some people know applications and some only know the movements.  For example, Au' is a movement but what are the applications that come out of the movement?

When the poster of this topic says that Capoeira should be practice as a "Martial Art", what does he mean?  The African way of teaching is different than is than the Japanese way (for example).  There is not one way of teaching a Martial Art...  (I only use the term Martial Art for the sake of this conversation)

Capoeira is a "Martial Dance".  A martial dance is born out from the understanding of the principles of the Martial Art.  The Martial Art comes first and based on the principles of the art, the "Dance" is born.  In the roda, it is only a game!  I wholeheartedly disagree with those who believe that they are "fighting" in a roda...  Yes, sometimes a roda can get physical but a fight is a whole other animal...  I don't just "play" capoeira... I "DO" Capoeira.  Part of "doing" capoeira is the game and the dance and the music and the singing and yes, the fight...  But, in my opinion, the fight in capoeira is a whole different context.  I don't agree with the concept of "tournament Capoeira"!  I think that this would water down Capoiera but to each, its own...

A group's level of fight orientation really depends on the Mestre and their experience with Capoeira. My group's overall Mestre, Acordeon, was a student of Bimba and a bit of a brawler himself in his hey day from the stories I've been told.  Then my direct Mestre came from being a Muay Thai and Escrima instructor with some MMA experience too. This gave our group a bit of a more fighting outlook to the way we play capoeira, although that has diminished somewhat in recent times. Its funny too because a lot of the more fight like games I see played by a lot of groups are between their students and another groups in sort of a bravado, my group is better than yours kinda way.  But at open rodas we tend to play each other much harder than students from other groups. Me personally, I don't usually start off an aggressive game but actually enjoy them when people start with me.  But I do focus my game and teaching on not doing attacks out of range or wasted movements.

I think in Modern America there isn't a huge call for street fighting skills, especially comparatively to most cities in Brazil. A lot of the more fight oriented groups are Brazilian because they are in an environment where that comes into play much more often.

I can see you are more of a martial artist who has done some capoeira and your Mestre has impressed you enough to see the strengths of its capabilities. But I think what you are trying to teach is applying capoeira techniques to a MMA like situation, which is fine, but a very limited version of the full capoeira that you're not probably at the level yet to teach, I'm guessing since you don't have much info on your bio.  That said I actually am somewhat interested to see the videos you're making.

PS I actually am surprised at how stiff an uninventive Anderson Silva's capoeira game is in light of how the opposite is true of his actual fighting. I definitely wouldn't call him a fight capoeirista but just a great fighter who's very open minded about different arts and their strengths.

I know what you're saying as regards to people adding different things according to their lineage. However there must be core, well if not moves, ways of moving that make capoeira capoeira and not MMA. You allude to it when you say that capoeira involves fighting in circles. I know nothing is `banned' in capoeira but it seems to be in a way ditacted by a set of social rules, ie not really using hand strikes and not pileing onto an opponent who is down and punching him in the head (although I have seen vids of it). It makes  the whole thing of what cpaoeira is very confusing but I still think there is a certain way of moving conected with it that is unique as is the way of moving for boxing or wrestling or taichi (I'll have a read about that thankyou , any books you'd recommend?) take ut the ginga and add punches, is it still capoeira?

Interesting points in the original post. Nice to see someone promoting the fight aspects of it. From watching the videos it seems you're trying to bring capoeira elements into the fight as opposed to making the roda more violent. Am I right? Does your view of capoeira include the roda? I see no ginga in your videos (although I did see the article on the blog - haven't read it yet) and everyone will tell you, if it there's no ginga then it's not capoeira. Also a lot of cock-punching. What's up with that? I think a punch in the bollocks would really just ruin the mood of a roda, although I've never seen it done so I can't say for sure! What is your history in capoeira? How long and with whom did you train? Just curious, not trying to cast doubts on your credentials. Again, I do like the way you're looking at this.

G

Meninao, I agree with your points, but I think the mistake most people make is what I highlighted in your quotation...what you see in the UFC is NOT an actual fight...although it is a very thin line what you witness in the octagon is NO different from a roda de Capoeira.

In the Yoruba language there is a concept called "ijo ija"...may look familiar if you are a capoeirista in Los angeles with applied experience under your belt. Anyways the words are very similar but carry something interesting within its concept...simply translated it is Dance - Fight, conceptually it is the West African philosophy of that which exist between these two dimensions; superficially...in fight there is dance...just as in dance there is fight. Again, in a jogo de capoeira we are ALWAYS walking this very thin line, the best players been able to deep into this realms while coming back to neutrality.

@ Lennon, Yes absolutely for the physical game one needs the fundamentals no question there...the thing is each time one defines capoeira, the spirit itself will bring a challenge. Is this not capoeira? In the roda, the person(s) in charge can "control" some aspects or dictate how the game is to be played the rest is left to the participants meaning everyone physically in attendance...if one wishes to punch and kick another person in the 'crunch' then capoiera fixes it...I am sure I don't have to explain that...I believe (just deducing) the capoiera we mostly all practice is Bahian, a Bahian format or a replication of this style...some capoiera of old did not have the ginga...so we can argue the codified way to play now is based on a social norm of the aforementioned.

PS sorry the books I have read are just Nestor's little book and partially Gerald taylor's Jogo not really into reading materials of this nature...

@ Guinomo, do you mind clarifying this point? This is probably the third time I am seeing this (not from you) but are you saying within the construct of the roda or a real fight?

It will be nice if the OP came back to disseminate his thoughts...it is difficult to read too much into the original post...!?!?!?

@ "Ejodudu"

While I did enjoy the responses you gave in your last answers, I have another prospective...  Many people, as you have done above, use the term "dance-fight" to describe Capoeira.  Here, you say that in the Jogo de Capoeira, we are "always" walking this very thin line...  I think that this video of the tv show "scrubs" images my opinion on this concept (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9cG7KSmjqc)...

The story goes:  The Africans had to hide their fighting style in the form of a dance...  The two things that stand out in the previous sentence is "HIDE" and "IN THE FORM OF".  What were the Africans doing that they had to "hide" it "in the form of" a dance?  When something is "hidden", it is not reveled.  So, if Capoeira is this dance that can explode and turn into a fight and then turn back into a dance and then turn into a fight again...  What is being hidden..?  If the "fight" is exposed then it is not hidden.

Yes, I believe that there is "fight" in the "dance" but I do not believe that there is "dance" in the "fight". Fighting has rhythm; it has timing; it has movement; it has coordination and agility and finesse...  And so does Dancing!  But the martial dance is what is used to develop the attributes of the martial art.

It is not that Capoeira is a dance in one moment and then a fight in the next.  I truly believe that this is a misunderstanding.

Are you using the term "dance" in a poetic since?  Like "Muhammad Ali was "Dancing" on his opponent..."  It is not that Muhammad Ali was dancing, but he was moving so smoothly and with such grace that it was as if he was dancing.

And when you use the word "fight", maybe we have different definitions of the word Fight...

@PGCABrother Jason...not a problem we are all entitled to a position, although this is a non-sequitur I did not say anything about African's hiding their fight style in the form of a dance...?

I will bite...there are many issues but lets not take away from the thread; Capoeira as a martial art is only by default really(well may M.Bimba but lets not derail this thread) anyways...does it have martial attributes? AbsolutelyYes! As an art it is difficult, there is simply nothing really like it...but we are in the western world...things need to be boxed and a box is necessary for everything!! We compare it to what the west is mostly familiar with; the "Eastern Martial arts" and then relegate some status or hierarchy of by virtue of application or worse politics. However most westeners cannot really phantom its application until they start to look beyond thier own inherent superficiality of labels.

Anywayz lets use a concept we are mostly familir with here in the west...Yin-Yang, when this concepts are applied to the fight philosophy it realigns many elements beyond the scope of this thread...but simply put, one CANNOT exist without the other...period! The problem with labels, categories and particularizations is they never seem to realign the larger context.  Ijo-Ija, dance-fight is NOT the same as dancing or fighting/dancing and fighting...it is dancefight...one does not exist without the other...however they are in different realms...yes it is a contradiction standing in the western world looking inwardly. Yin-yang have "two" different dimensions and are even opposing yet complementaries, like ibeji...inseparable!

So if "fight" & "Dance" have timing, rhythm etc where is the issue? the way I see it is classical;

A=C

B=C

then A must be related to B!

Yes to some capoeira is dance, to some it is fight...to some it is fight off then dance on, dance off then fight on and then to some others it is both...it does not matter; that is simply were capoiera finds them because ultimately the concepts from its reduction point is still give and take. I only seperate my terms to simplify what I am thinking.

IMO defining "dancing and fighting" in tehis context separately is analgous to defining watermelon...by first defining water, then melon when in fact the whole name distinguishes it from another melon yet a more powerful way will be to describe it.... How one defines dance and fight seperately will be problematic here... If we are trying to quantify our understanding, no problem...for the sake of simplicity; one who says capoeira is dance, still has to fight for their space, while one who says capoeira is fight...still has to dance to keep or even take space...again I see no problem!

In Yoruba they say "when two people tell a secret there is actually a third entity"...The thin line I was referring to is potential...yes in fact the "third entity"

Sign up.... Controversial post............ Plug own agenda................ Create shitstorm................... Disappear.............

I had a feeling before my very first post, but took the bait anyway. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe there's a troll under this bridge.

Ok seriously what happened to him? did someone throw him back?

wow, fascinating parrallels, very interesting.

Ejodudu,

I meant this in the context of the roda. Applying capoeira in a fight is not the same as applying it in a roda. In these discussions I think it is necessary to define the difference, and to me if it's in a roda and is based around the ginga, then yes that's capoeira. However in a fight, most of what defines it as capoeira to us will be taken out and it'll be brawling with elements of capoeira. Similarly to how I tell people it's an artform with martial elements rather than tell them it's a martial art. It means something different to everyone though and this is just how I personally would delineate and this is likely to change over time!

TL;DR I'm basically wondering how much like the videos the OPs rodas are.

@Ejodudu, I also do not see  the "dance" in the "fight", yes I think I get what PGCABrother Jason is saying. Unfortunately things have to be defined so we can get what it is you are saying without adding/subtracting because of our different definitions.

@Lennon...

lol I am NOT surprised; it did not get any input…

@Guinomo

Thanks for the clarification… its funny many people who do capoeira usually will say they use only elements of the art form in a fight…it kind of seems antithesis to why even practice the art in the first place if you accept it is as a M.A!?!?!? it begs another question you touched…should there be a ginga…physical ginga in a fight? If you argue yes, is it based on what you want people to say “oh he is doing capoeira” or something else? My opinion will be no…If and when I have to be in a situation of a bona fide fight, if I cannot wiggle my way out then I will be using ALL elements of capoeira to preserve my person for an escape…

@PGCABrother Jason,

The philosophical aspect!…related suggests simply a relationship, not equivalence at least not physically. I think the Dance-Fight philosophy has to be grasped from a non Cartesian point of view, it seems like you are either trying to separate them or just say its one way. If one stands at the ocean on a rainy day, a conclusion may be made that the raindrops and ocean are separate, but the raindrop is just as an ocean as the ocean is a raindrop… perspective! I agree with the Mestre, for me; everyone does capoeira.

I don’t agree with this analysis, you are focused on one person. The other player is also dancing as a matter of fact; the player in the suit gives a cabecada and even “tapped” the other player with his “rabo de arraia”. For the sake of this discussion, we will say that they are both dancing with less “fight”. Dancing and fighting have multitude of levels, there is a whole metalanguage in the “dance-fight”. Anyways in the video you provided, the “dance” here simply suggests cooperation; both players are “opened”; there is no noticeable antagonism…(the “fight” aspect). This is an attribute of “the beautiful game” applied to capoeira.

Dance and fight in this context are separate when and if you choose to make them separate, it does not mean they are and yes it is a western way of thinking. Think hard about what you are saying. I have even heard people use feminine for dancing and masculine for fighting to describe capoeira. In reality, this is not problematic if we aren’t talking gender (again Cartesian division), but feminine/Masculine as energetics. These principles are very deep rooted in capoeira...

For me, everyone does capoeira, it is just degrees…there are probably a myriad of ways we can look at these, but I will mention one. If everyone does capoeira, then one may ask how come you don’t see everyone doing ginga etc ? Well you already answered this from what your Mestre told you above “All movements is capoeira”…so life is capoeira! Now another way is just one noticing by becoming aware and start to align their spirit or self with the higher principles of living or Life…either way these reconciles ‘capoeira finding you’. Everyone has a different level of understanding life in general and believe me, there is a hierarchy of applied knowledge, but that is beyond the scope of our discussion…lol there is a reason folks are called Mestre!

I am not sure how to approach your other statement underlined; if I asked one to define ego right now…chances are they will pick up an encyclopedia look up Freud or “google” and yet that definition will not suffice…the ego is as elusive as capoeira, yes capoeira has a personality she will slip thru cracks so that he can make a point. I cannot define capoiera, but relate its attributes. All your students will probably have varying definitions…but they share a common theme…so you are right to say the many differing reasons people have come for the art does not necessarily change what capoeira is, but we don’t know what capoeira is in the first place…this might become the liar’s paradox; so I will say, let the gymnast bring their own capoeira…if we can interact, then we will create a third entity…

Fight has so many levels; combat within the game and in the context of capoeira is inclusive. However I say combat in the most relative of terms, because we are still playing and not seeking to annihilate or WIN your complement or comrade. Ultimately, within the scope of the game, you are playing YOU right!!?? Now you say you don’t “fight” for space; (it is either you are disagreeing based on semantics). Can’t you fight for the recognition of your being or another being? I am simply saying you move to occupy space, sometimes inhabited by your comrade, I mean there is an objective if not, one just stands there looking pretty like Ricky, just dancing…the objective is move, take space and give up space, “cooperatively” or by “antagonistic cooperation”…either way can we interact. It ALWAYS takes the minimum of two.

weird, because it appears to be conceptually very similiar

If you want to reduce Capoeira to some movements, then you can say that "some" of them are "similiar"...  But Capoeira is not just some Choreographed movements and training techniques...  My answer is a resounding NO...  This is not Capoeira!!!

 The whole concept is similiar right down to rhythmical stepping, are you sure its choregraphed? Of course its not capoeira but it appears to involve kicks, sweeps, an theatre, an intrestingly is a very old martial art. To repeat myself I'ver N

never seen anything so conceptually similiar before, have you?

I have to disagree...  A raindrop contains not salt...  The ocean is massively salty.  You can not survive drinking ocean water while rain water will sustain your life.  Yes, they are both "water" but the have different properties...

i agree....
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With all due respect...I think you have missed my point entirely!!

In that case, I will not bother to respond to the rest of your points...  We just have two different belief systems.  I just don't see Capoeira as a "dance-fight" as much as I do see it as a "dance" and as a "fight".  I am sure that you believe (based on what you have said so far) that Capoeira is a "dance" a "fight" and a "dance-fight" all at the same time...  We just fundamentally disagree on this point.  Some may say that disagreement is part of the nature of Capoeira...  I disagree with that also.  Disagreement may be the nature of Man but it is not the nature of Capoeira... I would like to trace the origin of the term "dance-fight"...  Who first called it that and what did they mean when they said it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UPgxdZW6CU

capoeira e uma luta no uma danca, some people will swear this is not capoeira but before you say that maybe you should understand a concept in this world view. To enjoy freedom we must know what it feels like to be shackled. This two positions will have to be embraced, the capoeira I like to play does not come any where close to what I have posted but I also appreciate that it exists. If you say your capoeira is a martial art well?

PGCABrother Jason, I think this thread needs to die and a new one started just because the op has gone into hiding. I will really like to see a continuation of thoughts and perspective. A quick question though, you say your mestre says "All movements is capoeira" is there any exception?

PGCABrother Jason,

We are on differing wavelengths, it 'seems' you are actively trying to seek disunity..!?!?

let me provide a glimpse at my POV; A simple pebble on the floor has a crack you can see it. Now take a magnifying glass and look at this crack, it has become a string in width...now if you looked at it under a microscope under the weakest lens, the crack is now a path...the more powerful the objective (lens strength) the crack just appears to expand into a gorge and even when you get the most powerful of lens (no matter the technology)...you cannot see the boundary of the crack, nor can you see the end any longer...in Ifa they say nature cannot look upon itself...because the pebble is inextricably intertwined with the fabric of the universe itself...!! We as humans discriminate for understanding, fine...but then fall victim to this "separation" in some circles it is called different names...regardless it is a western phenomenon of viewing the world; I am not passing a value judgment, but in other to get my point you will have to go beyond the black and white, tall and short, here and there dichotomy...it is limited! One is asked to describe capoeira, they begin to intellectualize it ; just as you have done in the "raindrop-ocean" analogy and this misses the point...ALWAYS! It is like defining love making or smelling flowers, you can only be so close and yet so far, ...concepts describe forms and symbols to an extent...I think this is why women are so far ahead of men in terms of communication, I digress.

Now you say your Mestre...has basically said that all movement is Capoeira...then you say If you want to reduce Capoeira to some movements, then you can say that "some" of them are "similiar"...  But Capoeira is not just some Choreographed movements and training techniques...  My answer is a resounding NO...  This is not Capoeira!! in regards to not capoeira? which is it? Did you even take the time to read the history? Your Mestre is right, EVERY MOVEMENT and hence RHYTHM is capoeira...I say everyone does capoeira by degrees...can't you see the reconciliation?

Capoeira is a word, that transmits forms and symbols...thats it, we share this value to a greater extent to keep cohesion...this is culture, culture gives context...now other aspect culture is also a vehicle that comes out from the mind of humans...the energy of capoeira as you may know actually transcends humans...this is why NO mestre has the actual key to any absolute truth, talk less of adherents....in other to know this means one has to live outside the bounds of the material nature...NOT HATTENING, hence relative truths...and all roads thus leads to rome

The game we play in the roda is an illusion, it is a microaspect...and yet a macro. Time is non-existent in the game and yet we play on a time...this contradictions are only contradictions if you only see things in the cartesian world view.

Anyways as far as dance-fight, its ok...we can definitely agree to disagree...that discussion goes beyond this thread...and some things are still worth o pulo do gato.

PS, I like your point on disagreement as that of the realm of human nature and not that of capoeira...but then again who knows capoeira absolutely?

This is Capoeira MMA!!!  I can't say that it is not "Capoeira" but I will definitely say that it is not "Capoeira de Angola".  Is it a "fight"?  I would say so but just because Capoeira is a fight does not make what we witnessed in the video "Capoeira".  The acrobatic twirls that we see today in contemporâneo Capoeira was added so I guess that if someone wants to add punches to their contemporary style then they can call it what ever the want but in my belief system, it is not Capoeira.  (I did enjoy the video though)

Everything that I see, however, is "fair" in a fight...!   If I am in a "fight", will I punch?  Hell yea!!!  There are three rules to fighting...   Number 1:  There are no rules.  Number 2:  Refer to rule number 1.  Number 3:  All can Cheat.  That is why I have such a problem with Capoeira being considered this "Dance-fight" in the Roda.  I, for one, don't come to the Roda for combat.  If someone put their hands on me in a Roda, like what is expressed in this video then I would refer to "rule Number 1".   But if I came to a Roda and they were exhibiting the type of games displayed on the video, I would not get in the that Roda anyway.  Capoeira de Angola is more than just a Martial Art:  It is a Martial Science.  The Jogo de Capoeira does not have to become a MMA match to prove that it is a Martial Art...

At to your quick question...  I don't believe that he is referring to "all" movement.  For example, a glass falling off of the shelf is "movement".  But he is referring to Nature. Some of the animals, the wind, the trees, the ocean, and of course, Human Movement.  For example:  He says that a man on the subway is doing Capoeira...  He didn't say that the "man" does Capoeira but he made a specific comparison to the man "on the subway".   He says that a baby learning how to walk is doing Capoeira...  He didn't say that the "baby" does Capoeira but the comparison is that the baby "learning to walk" is doing Capoeira.  So it is not that "All Movement" is Capoeira but movements that relate to balancing and stabilizing the body.  So no,  I did not mean "every thing that moves"...  My apologies for any confusion...

primeiramente obrigado pela explicacao

why does it "feel" you are both saying the same thing but yet seem stuck on the issue of fight. I see where you are coming from though, the combat is not suppose to be a thing in the jogo de capoeira. Ejodudu is saying if capoiera is whole (not clear beginning or ending) then the roda de capoeira is not just the game. You have said that when you go to a roda you don't come for combat. To me you are saying, the festival or the gathering to play the game we associate  capoeira with should have no combat at least in capoeira de angola right?. Ejodudu says in the roda you are talking about very good capoeiristas walk a line. (Let me add some thing interesting, I was confuse but after I started to think it all makes sense. ok for example, I hate playing women who think they have something to proof, I am confident and so I play with this energy that wants to let out especially when the camarada is just been rude. During the course of the game there sloppiness becomes clearly visible and I stop short of completing potentially damaging movements just at the nick of time to show control. Although I will like to tear into them especially when they start kicking and doing cabecada when I am already closed. I can imagine if these movements are executed then I fall on the other side because I don't know much of that besides pulling hair. So I will say that thin line I get, angoleiros especially smile and laugh for a reason.  There is hidden a threat, please watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qwLjYxuOo it is one of the best game I have had the pleasure to watch, I can't believe I just saw this yesterday. It underscores a lot of points in this thread, I saw hand slaps, coltovelada, ninja kicks, tesouras everything but done in the style of an angoleiro a smile. Indeed it in not a "fight" I am only playing can't you seem me smiling lol but I know we are all looking through our rose colored glasses.

Now if there is a roda also that exist outside that roda we go to play then won't it make sense that fight is also a possibility? If your life is dependent on you having to defend yourself wouldn't it be a movement as your mestre says?  and you have to fight right?

Fuck you people talk some shit!

There's a reason that so many long time posters are here no longer. How about a little (well, a LOT) less quasi intellectual bullshit and a little more capoeira. You are doing nothing more than rehashing discussions that have been held here for years, only WAY more verbosely (and much less wit). And funnily enough, the most accurate, succinct and logical posts in this thread have come from the likes of Espantalho and Meninao, who have been around the traps for years. This isn't about who has been here the longest, though. That's just outright silly. Of course, the vast majority of experienced capoeiristas across the world have probably never even cast theie eyes across this little corner of the interwebs. (end rant)

It's simple. Some people play capoeira. Some people fight capoeira. Some people dance capoeira. Some people do all 3 at once, and yet others do all 3, but in different contexts, at different times.

And you know what........... they are ALL right. And they are ALL OK. Just because the person on the keyboard has a different opinion to you, doesn't make YOU a better capoeirista than them, with better, more authentic capoeira. It just makes you different. You fight and they dance? Still both capoeiristas. You play angola, they play regional? Still capoeiristas...... Capoeira Brasil v Cordao de Ouro? You get my point.

So how about less of this silly divisiveness, and more about that which brings us all together?

The big man.

nice.

but I STILL think MY capoeira is better than yours, or more authentic, or more traditional, or more efficient, or better in a street fight, or has more malandragem, or is more beautiful, etc, etc, etc...I think it's the logic of a 5 year old saying "my dad can beat up your dad".

[/closethread]

 For everything a season, mebe, just mebe the `old threads' about this are because some of the more aged, sorry more Mature posters were the same once (only obviously much funnier and better an youngsters showed respect and you could leave your doors unlocked without some weirdo coming in an putting microscopes on the floor to look at cracks or raindrops in the sea to dilute the salt (sorry to original posters haven't read threads completely) )

but 5 year olds argue so well

nuh-uh

uh-huh

nuh-uh

uh-huh

NUH-UH

UH-HUH!!

so let me get it straight everyone else has been lurking but it took Grande one post to bring you old gooseseses out hahaha talk about passive aggressive...typical men psssh!

status quo should be challenged if you can not contribute then please don't kill bandwidth because it does not follow the format you are used to. At least Grande commented and added his POV which is still in direction to what is been discussed, his comment does not however suggest it is an opening invitation to ruin the thread, oh wait I guess it was dying lol. Old timers grow a thicker skin, not your cup of tea it was obvious no one had contributed in a while, one known "no nonsense poster" comes in an every lurker comes out of the nook and cranny.

let me add to the defunct discussion;

Pease porridge hot, pease porridge cold,Pease porridge in the pot, nine days old;Some like it hot, some like it cold,Some like it in the pot, nine days old

capoeira é para todos

Oh no, not nursery rhymes...anything but that...lol

Actually, I didn't post since my original post on this thread because I summed up my views on the subject well enough that there wasn't a reason to say anything else.  Just because people agree with Grande doesn't mean that they are ruining the thread or have thin skin.  It just means that this has been done before, and a few of us already summed up the whole conversation very concisely.

...with the key...sissie ah!! professor grande what time is it?

Espantalho1 you are off my facebook list, Lennon I wonder about you...anyways I agree this was a passive aggressive reaction, but it is very well expected, people will make fun of the things they can't understand or are actually afraid to express and displace their emotions unto others...I am not surprised peopel could not see this...right under their nose too nevertheless I hope this thread dies a lowly death...

Although the movement may be Capoeira, it doesn't mean the Capoeira is contained in the movement.  Capoeira is more than just movement.  I know that you agree to that because of what you have written in this thread:  Capoeira involves much more than just "movement".  So if I see someone doing a movement that looks like a Mea Lua de Costa  or a Chappa de Frente, I can't say that they are doing Capoeira.  I can, however, say that we have movements in Capoeira that are "similar" but I can't call what they are doing "Capoeira.

As I posted to "Latie"...

My Mestre is not referring to "all" movement.  For example, a glass falling off of the shelf is "movement"... But is the glass doing Capoeira? But he is referring to Nature. Some of the animals, the wind, the trees, the ocean, and of course, Human Movement.  For example:  His statement that a man on the subway is doing Capoeira...  He didn't say that the "man" does Capoeira but he made a specific comparison to the man "on the subway".  Is he calling the "man" a "Capoeirista"?  No...  He is talking about the mechanics of the movement and not just the movement.  He says that a baby learning how to walk is doing Capoeira...  He didn't say that the "baby" does Capoeira but the comparison is that the baby "learning to walk" is doing Capoeira.  We are talking about "principles here and not just the movement.  So it is not that "All Movement" is Capoeira but movements that relate to balancing and stabilizing the body.  So no,  I did not mean "every thing that moves"...  My apologies for any confusion...

And, no, I did not read the history of the video...  I will read it.

>>>

<<<

 Good shit!  I'm glad that somebody said it. 

*Good shit!  I'm glad that somebody said it.*

Damn... Black Spiderman makes an appearance.. this thread is poppin now.

You can thank me later for getting things rolling again.

Intellectualizing would not be the word that comes to mind.  Your point in bringing up the raindrops and the ocean were to show that they were really one.  Although one does come from the other, I was making the point that they are not the same.  One comes from the other and eventually returns to the source from which it came.  Rain is just the earth calling the water back to it.  I was assuming that your analogy regarding the raindrop and the ocean was related to the Dance and the Fight...  And as I continue, let me agree with you that "Capoeira is One!"  And in that Oneness, there are many chambers.  I understood or Overstood your point with the rain and the ocean.  And I love your analogy with the crack on the pebble...  It reminds me of a "fractal"...  The more you zoom, the more you reveal.  I happen to look at Capoeira as a Fractal.  That is a different story though.

What do you think about what I called the MMA Capoeira video that was posted above???  Would you say that it is an acceptable way to conduct one's self at an Angola Roda?  Should and Could we just shake hands at the berimbau and then start swinging on each other?  I am not being funny...  If there are no rules then what are the rules?  Lets not forget what we are discussing.  We are discussing the concept of "dance-fight" vs. "dance" and "fight" as it relates to "playing" in the Roda.

You have made the point over and over again that dance can not exist without "fight" and fight can not exist without "dance".  I believe that this statement is what misses the point.  I don't disagree that, in Capoeira, the dance and the fight are one.  Where we disagree is in the application of that statement.  I typed earlier that I thought that Capoeira is One...  But as a Warrior, I understand that the Warrior Dance teaches us attributes that will be used on the battlefield.  We don't do the "Warrior Dance" on the Battlefield.  In Capoeira, "jogo" is for the roda and "Capoeiragem" is for the streets...  I am not "actively trying to seek disunity"...  I am not looking for ways to disagree with you.  Infact, we agree on most points but the only sticking point where we disagree is the concept of Dance-fight in the Roda or, really, outside of the Roda.  The only question I would have now is where do we draw the line in the roda?  What is acceptable and what is not?  Does everyone in this form truly believe that "IT'S ALL CAPOEIRA"???

 Isn't that what the older mestres mean when they say capoeira shouldn't be violent but it is dangerous.ie it is never just a game, nor ever just a fight... I dunno

I like this game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4c8BRs56kg

Notice the kick to the face at 3:05.  Ferradura got him good and Itapua didn't resort to street brawling tactics or using a knife.

But according to the logic being discussed on this thread, Capoiera is "everything" and therefore you can't confine the Roda to "this" or "that"...  With out disagreeing with your above point, who is to say what Capoeira is???  If I can "play" in one moment but then "fight" in the next moment, that is (as you say) dangerous.

When I see a young lady come to the Roda to have fun and play Capoeira...  But some cat, who learned one of the applications from the Tessoura, does a take down causing the young lady to crash her head into the floor.  There was no reason for him to show that execute that movement...  Needless to say, she did not play for the rest of the evening.

Did you see the poste that "Laite" posted?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UPgxdZW6CU...  Is this what the roda should be???  Do you consider this a game?  To me, it looks like a Karate Competition.  I am not condemning them but it's not Capoeira de Angola.  And if some, on this thread, consider this video to, in fact, be Capoeira, I ask, where do we draw the line?  Is there a line???   And if there is not "line" then Capoeira may as well become a Mixed Martial Arts Competition.

They seem like friends who are in a mutual relationship in this game.  It is hard to tell whether the kick @ 3:05 was intentional or not.  But we can surly see the game escalating  well before 3:05...   But you are correct.  There was no brawling or using knifes.  The main thing that kept the game from going too far was the mutual respect that one had for the other.  The point I made about using a knife in the roda was in response to specific statements.  Of course I don't wan't to see someone pull a knife or brawl in the roda...  But if Capoeira is "everything" then who is it that makes the "rules" of the "game"?  I just want to know where the line gets drawn in this "dance-fight"?

PGCABrother Jason,

Thanks for sticking around in this thread, I think it has so many downs than up lol I think when many people are discussing capoeira it seems to be confined to just the jogo. At least if I translate what Lennon is saying mestres say. The threat was very, very real and I don't have to hit you to make a point, but make no mistake we are still have an objective. So different schools I think try to define this objective, I think the pastinha lineage (I can only speak off) while it is varied seems to hold a common philosophy showing the moves and not completing them dependent on the status of players. This however I don't think means one cannot be hit, getting hit does not constitute a fight (although some people do not want to get touched ) and for the most part if you are good enough you can hide your true intentions. This is why I was saying I think I get the gist, because while we are playing the angoleiro has a myriad of rasteria. I don't have to be kicked but now I have to watch my balance or those head butts that seem to come from nowhere and then don't forget the smile right!! .

Brother Jason, I was not there or maybe I heard about that one; but also women do like to play crazy like maybe proof a point to men that they can get down and dirty. I am not saying women should not this is what balances the universe, but if you bring fire prepare to protect it from been blown out. If she was playing aggressively which is 'usually' the case out here then she must have pissed of the wrong fanboy or something. Sad situation but you know men will be men

Espantalho1, that game as already suggested was a game of very good friends (so it would seem) and whether or not the kick was intentional we can never know, this is the beauty of hiding your game. You are right that the game never got out of hand (for obvious reasons)

now watch this and cringe and laugh at the same time www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDEKwsHIe4o&feature=related#t=2m59s I am sure both mestre know of one another,  styles of play is quite different and both adapt to each other very quickly but this game as a bystander is full of "that thing" and you can clearly see the "fight" without actually fighting. This is probably the highest level you can go without actually turning it into an all out brawl. I did not even see aggression just straight raw and contained energy. it takes people who understand this to play like this, I was highly impressed and respected both mestres.

I like the game.  You can also be pretty aggressive without it turning into a fight...or even hitting the other person hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3zaDk4Ez_4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_a_YvDKjZ6s&feature=endscreen

You stated to Brother Jason that some people don't want to get touched.  I would say that if they don't want to get touched, they should stay out of the roda...unless well, maybe if the rhythm of banguela is playing...but to enter the roda of capoeira and expect not to get touched is like going to a hamburger stand and not expecting to smell french fries.

Also, here at 2:21, the contact was real.  I was there.  The game didn't become a fight afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Imn84e6DmKg&NR=1

It depends on what type of Roda we are speaking of.  The tradition that I am coming from is just different than yours.  Playing a tight fast game with out making deliberate contact is a higher level of play that many can not manage...  We can disagree on this and that is fine but being able to play with no contact shows a higher level of control.  Anyone can kick anyone at almost any time in the games that are being displayed.  In the tradition of Capoeira de Angola (again, depending on the type of roda:  Street vs. Academy Rodas), it is absolutely considered inferior not to be able to play without making contact.  That is one of the reasons that we wear White in the Roda.  Most contact that I see in the roda is due to sloppiness and lack of control.  You and I have played...  The game was fun, challenging but it was also controlled.  Did I put my feet on you?  No...  Did I give you a challenge????

I am not against contact in the roda...  That has never been my point in any of my writings.  But I don't agree with you that when you get into the Roda you should expect to get hit...  PGCA instructors believe in playing "tag"...  When you see me at the Roda in Black pants and a White or Gold shirt, I am coming prepared for physical contact.  When you see me in All White, wearing a Guayabera or a White Linen Suit, the I expect that whom ever I am playing shows that they are able to control their strikes and still be challenging at the same time.  The problem with this is the fact that most Capoeiristas only know One Way of Play...  That is the sad part.  But the main points that I have been making here is on the concept of "dance-fight".  Like you said, there can be physical contact with out there being a fight.  I agree...   We call it "playing tag".  But we have been debating "fighting" in the roda.  That is the only reason I brought up "knives" in the Roda because I would like to know where the line is drawn at.  Should we be able to Brawl???  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UPgxdZW6CU)

Some say that there are no "rules" in the Jogo de Capoeira...  So, again, where do we draw the line?  If someone can try an knock my teeth out in the context of "the game" then why can't I pull my knife and give them a couple of slashes?  I know that I am being extreme but it only goes to my question:  Where do we draw the line?

I reiterate my point that playing without touching is a Higher Level of Play that many Capoeiristas (Angola or otherwise) just don't have...

 hey PGCAbrotherjason, yes I saw the vid, doesn't strike me (excuse the pun) as a karate competition, more a bunch of grown men rolling about on the floor like scrapping girls, theres no clean punches or kicks just a lot of thigh grabbing and wrestling on the floor. A more charitable way of stating it would be it reminds me of playground fights when kids are in junior and infant school, a struggle for dominance rather than to badly hurt the other person. Which made me think more about capoeira an its `rules' or lack thereof (Grande please stop reading at this point if you haven't already, the following playing with ideas for fun will bore you stupid) It seems capoeira is governed by social rules, an unique in this. what other martial art do you hold back from striking a senior player or a mestre out of respect? (In all the others I've done if you have the balls you fight as well as you can in sparring with masters and other students alike, (and with masters may get handed your lungs back on a plate,) but that is the normal social an approved of convention, you are taught to fight, so bring the best one possible to your master) So if the rules in the roda are social ones rather the combat orientated ones `fights' in capoeira are also socially governed no-one wants to be seen punching an kicking an opponent bloody as it will reflect badly on their level of control, so they roll about on the floor trying to get on top, while the others, errrr scream (kinda like girls in that vid) but eventually pull them apart, which again is often done by more senior members of the group, a display of social hierachy. 

As for the girl who got taken down either laite is right and she was playing hard or the boy was an arse an chose a weaker target to flatten. Still if she wasnt unconcious her mestre/prof should have sent her back in quickly if she wouldn't go herself. Capoeira e luta and all that, gotta get back on the horse before you're too scared.

"Laite Brother Jason, I was not there or maybe I heard about that one; but also women do like to play crazy like maybe proof a point to men that they can get down and dirty. I am not saying women should not this is what balances the universe,  "

Maybe women play like crazy because they just like crazy  I do if I have the right person to play with. Some people the fire burns higher in than others, some days it burns higher in everyone, than others. I dont think (at least I hope) girls arent out to `impress the boys' I mean why bother?, a capoeirista is just a capoeirista in the roda. Play each according to their abilities and yours.

In order to play a competitive high level game of Capoeira without contact the players need to have a very high level of understanding of the game, of their bodies, balance and control in all their movements and good vision.  Most people who watch/watched these games don't understand what they are, they don't get it.  They end up interpreting it as something rather different than what it is.  And in part that is the point.

I believe that imitations and misunderstandings of these jogos is what lead to loose inept games of Capoeira performances and 'Capoeira Angola' that got popular for many.  Now they have this 'rule' don't touch, without understanding even the implication of the contact, the movements.  Anyway people take that only so far before it gets boring, because there is no substance to it.  Now, often, later on they interject this idea, lets make contact and try to trip eachother or whatever.  To me I see them as spazzing back and forth between a cooperative choreographed dance and taking cheap shots at eachother.  Eventually this can evolve to agame where the heat and pressure is on constantly, so that they can keep playing the game and not spend extensive periods of time throwing kicks over eachothers heads/so far away they'll never make contact (my favortie is when they both throw really fast armadas at the same exact moment, but are so far away from eachother all they hear is wind...sometiems I wish they were 2 feet closers so atleast their legs would smash together, atlesat it would be interesting to see....)....

The next step from there would be for them to learn a game/the game where we communicate and express ourselves, but keep the game alive exacting a constant pressure on the opponent and maintaining control, balance, position, distance etc.  A real tactical game without brutilization...alas for many the game started primarily as a spectator sport.  They go to events to watch the mestres/higher cords show their feats of strength in the roda while a room full of paying students oooh and aaaah with slack jaws, kinda like the superbowl really.  And then they spent years developing their floreios and flips and contortions, hyperflexibility and break inspired spin moves and inverted poses....LIke they are gonna give all that up for something nobody can see and that nobody will oooh and aaah at?  Atleast nobody who hasn'T been playing Capoeira at a high level themself for awhile is gonna understand even what is going on.

This game you are talking about is usually only going to make sense to people who started out with more physical games and practice, where the reality of what it all means is clear in the beginning, and the variety of games which allow us to explore and grow at later levels only really make sense with a given foundation.  Its not impossible but I think most people form their understanding and play of Capoeira with the athletic performance/paying spectator model of Capoeira in the modern day simply wont understand, and by the time they do, they only got where they were because they were the type of person who wants the spotlight Capoeira and they wont invest the time/energy in something else.

"Mestre Bola Sete added a few general observations on the state of capoeira angola: that today some people are saying that capoeira angola is non-contact, when in the old days the games were really rough. As for the people who wore all white in the roda, the point was not to avoid touching them and dirtying their white clothing – the point was to TRY to dirty their clothes, and they were so good in escaping all the blows that their clothing remained impeccable!"  From Lecture on Capoeira Angola and Mestre Pastinha

found here http://capoeira-connection.com/capoeira/page/2/

I also think it requires a certain level of skill and control to kick someone with just the right amount of energy behind it, so that they know they got hit good, but they don't get hurt.  Learning to control your kicks is cool.  I like to control my strikes and still put my feet on people.  In my school, we often tell people "we have two rules.  If you get kicked it's your fault.  If you kick someone and YOU DIDN'T MEAN TO, it's your fault."  It's kind of simplified, but I think you get the gist of those "rules".

One thing M. Galo (one of my mestres) once told us and I think he got it from M. Ra (another one of my mestres) is that there is a difference between kicking someone to hurt them and putting your feet on someone to let them know that they are open.  In the United Capoeira Association, we are ALL willing to put our feet on someone in order to let them know that they are open.

So I guess if you play someone from my organization, you should expect them to put their feet on you unless the rhythm of banguela is playing.  In that case M. Acordeon says to "play as if the other person's body is made of fire".  Now if the person running the roda said that they didn't want us to touch each other, then okay, that's different.

And your right that I disagree that you should go in the roda and expect to not get touched.  That's like going swimming in the ocean and expecting not to get wet.  Why did I get wet?  Because you're in the ocean.  Why did I get touched?  Because you're in the roda.  When I go into the roda, I expect to get kicked.  I expect to get taken down.  Do I want a broken nose or broken bones?  Of course not.

Agreed wholeheartedly...  Thanks for you insight on this topic...

What makes you think that I only know one way to play capoeira?  We play to different rhythms that call for different games.

When you make comments about how expecting not to get hit in the roda is like expecting not to get wet in the ocean is a strong indicator...  When you talk as if All Rodas are the same, that is also an indicator...  But knowing you and seeing you play on a number of occasions...,  You only have one game!  But who knows...  Maybe you have learned something since the last time we played. I truly hope so...

But for the record, I never accused you specifically as only knowing one way to "Play"...

sigh...

(messed up the quote, seriosly never have the time or care for proper quoting)  at Espantalho- 

Dude I don't probably know half the games/traditions/toques you do.  I may or may not have experience and knowledge with traditions you don't.

I'm sure Manhoso knows some pretty cool shit too.

ITs not about everybody knowing the same thing.  Contact is not necessary in every game of Capoeira.  And it is not appropriate either.

I have NEVER heard someone try to get someone elses clothes dirty in teh roda.  IT makes sense in a contact, but I7ve never heard of it as a general form of game play.

White clothes has a lot of meaning, but in a real Angola setting where everyone is wearing whites, usually for a set of rather similar reasons, if you go into the roda and try to smear a guy with your hands or feat, to fuck up his whites.  YOu will look like a noob or an asshole.

Now if you get in a tight game and he eats a foot, then you both look like asses for dirtying your clothes, but yes, he also takes responsiblity.

Anyway I just read how you kinda interpreted soething you read ina veyr fucked up way.  Seriously, don't tell anyone that we wear white and play with an intent to get eachothers clothes dirty.  Absolutely not dude.  That's like drinking with the intent of puking.  Yea some peopel do it, but they are a bit fucked in teh head.

heres what i do know-

Reciprocity in the roda +1, Now go and train.

Deuces mutherfuckers.

PGCA Brother Jason says:

Yes thanks...definitely a discussion for another life time lol

There is place for that in the capoeira universe that is why this actually exist in the first place...it is a matter of semantics, but answering your question directly; No I don't think it is a way to do your business in a traditional roda nor even a modern one...however to iterate this exist for a reason and the rules there is that capoeira *has no rules*...lol

Neither you nor I can read what is in the hearts of men/women...e.g we go to the library there is a social norm there (in terms of noise and reason of been there), is it always broken? yes...ALL the time! albeit by degrees...it does not sound like when u go to the park. You may say well libraries or even the park have written rules ..and they do (making them explicit rules) but it does not mean they are never broken, not the point I am trying to make. The library will tend to be policed first by an individual, then other individuals (not directly associated with the aforementioned institution)...then librarians etc, etc...then police! There are no written rules within the scope of capoiera...people police themselves first, then other people...then...to the mestre and we could keep on going. Ultimately, it is the norms that make the game of capoeira cohesive and at each iteration the times where it is born.

For me, in a jogo de capoeira I am there to play, the highest level of play still has tension as well as its opposing energies. It may sound ambiguous because it is not something I will want to get into on these particular forum...having said this, the capoeira roda for me always exist everywhere obviously on different planes. I have already expressed where I will advocate using the fullest potential of the fighting aspect, hope we can move on from that point...and yes "IT'S ALL CAPOEIRA"

Manhoso says:

Is it that simplisitc?

In the game, would you treat a "noob" with this philosophy? And if you have a mestre, would you apply this philosophy?

This coming from the guy who hangs out in small circles and only visits certain rodas.  Get real.

I know better than to wipe my hands or feet on someone wearing white in an angola roda.  I try to remember it too, but if someone is playing like they want to escalate the game and I leave a foot print on them to let them know that they were open.  I'm personally not going to lose any sleep over it.  Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe you can convince me otherwise, but this is how I see things right now.

Yes, I only go to "Certain Rodas" I only go to "Angola Rodas"???  I rarely go to contemporary or Regional Rodas for the exact reasons that you brag about.  If I don't find what you do "fun" then why should I go???  When some Contemporary groups have "Angola Rodas" then when I have the time, I go.  So it is not that I "hang out in small circles" but it is that Capoeira Angola is a Small community in Los Angeles.  If you don't like the ocean, why go the the beach?

The point was the quote.  I was not trying to put words in your mouth or hold you to my interpretation/impression of what you said.

What you had said is (please let me get the quote right this time)

As for the people who wore all white in the roda, the point was not to avoid touching them and dirtying their white clothing – the point was to TRY to dirty their clothes, and they were so good in escaping all the blows that their clothing remained impeccable!"

Who the fuck told you this? 

The point of the game is not, in any game I7ve ever heard of, to stain people's clothes.  personally you might do it to fuck with someone.  You might think its funny.  And I don7t know, maybe it is a game out there.  Lets see who can get who the dirtiest.  but its sounds silly.  Yea it would suck and its a pretty harsh thing to a guy, to intentionally footstain him, so I guess thats okay...but like I said  ithink it will make you look like an asshole if your sole intent was to put a stain on a dudes clothes.

The point was we can wear really nice, pristine clothes and practice a martial art without getting dirty, by showing control and poise, balance, vision, shared knowledgeand understanding.  A high level of that really fancy word that manhoso used.  I had to look it up in wiki, fuck.  According to wiki if we apply the 'TRY to dirty their clothes things' and Manhoso theory of doing on to them as they do to you (or something along them lines)...Well fuck kicks, I'm just gonna get a hand full of mud and throw it at you....wow I got you dirty!!!!

Think about it, in these physical games (actually I like physical games with banda etc. not arguing against these types of games, within reason, i find them very fun) are we hurting eachother?  Even in MMA, clearly there is a certain level of restraint, we aren't trying ti kill or maim.  What is the point of landing a soft punch, or just demonstrating that I could ahve pucnhed you?  A soft punch is, what?  I COULD have hit you harder?  Same difference right?  Getting someone to tap out in a Jiujitsu match- I COULD have killed you?  Naturally you don7t do it.  ALl martial arts have an element of demonstrated danger, demonstrated advantage.  If you spar in MMA, or Jiujitsu you get into situations contacts etc.  (I use to wrestle) where you recognize and demonstrate a gained advantage, achievement of a principle tactical advantage.  OFten you don't go through and execute the blow, the choke, the hold, the whatever, you step back, mutually acknowledge and continue....

For this to work and make sense yo uahve to, of course, have real contact, practice the actual chokes, the actual punches.  There is a time and context for gaining the knowledge and proficiency with each technique.  In Juijutsu, early on, you got to get choked to the point you puke (or feel like puking) and then practice/execute to that point on training partners- so that you nderstand what it is, but you don't do it every class, every training sessions.  once you reach a certain level, unless its a new technique, big competition or new guy in the gym yo uare teaching, you don't go to the point of pushing the limit (not often) its just not practical...or any fun.

In capoeira Angola there is a time and place for practicing techniques, forceful strikes, takedowns etc.  We also ahve traditions of playing games where targets are simply marked, where both players use a very hightened state of consciounsness during the game, liek a game of chess, where they are seeing and reacting and planning for things that don7t actaully maybe ver happen, or most of which doesn't occur.  The nullify the threat of a kick, of a checkmate, without it even being launched, or the end the game at a given pint 'checkmate' but the king is never actually taken, the game ends when yo ucan see that there is no one for one party to avoid loss, you don't ahve to kick the guy to prove it.

And so all white, we show, that we can paly this game, at that level, without putting foot prints on eachother.  Sure sometimes, somedays, some opponents, you stamp them, My foot was here BRUHAH!  And I am often up for those games.  Like brother Jason, I might not choose my best whites that day.  I don't do black and yellow usually.  Maybe for me cargo pants and a hoodie.  Whatever.  Seriously though if you need to put a footprint on everydude yo uplay, speaks of some insecurity/imaturity.  Time and place for al lof it.

For a newbie it works.. Play with a dialogue they can understand, plus one in order to teach, pressure or develop.

I do have a mestre..in fact a few :)

Each one has qualities unique to them and I do try to try to match +1.. many times its like Icarus flying too close to the sun.. sometimes I hold my own.. and a few times ive left an impression that has earned me a lifetime of abuse

Manhoso you are especial

Any safe port in a storm.. good for you.

":The point was the quote.  I was not trying to put words in your mouth or hold you to my interpretation/impression of what you said.

What you had said is (please let me get the quote right this time)

As for the people who wore all white in the roda, the point was not to avoid touching them and dirtying their white clothing – the point was to TRY to dirty their clothes, and they were so good in escaping all the blows that their clothing remained impeccable!"

Who the fuck told you this? "

That was a FUCKING direct quote from Mestre Bola Sete and I was even nice enough to post the source so you could look it up yourself.  If you have a problem with it, take it the FUCK up with him.  FUCK.  I'm so glad I can fucking say fuck.

So it would appear that I actually know MORE games than you.  It's like the guy that only eats thai food.  Sure, maybe you know a couple of more items on the thai menu than I do, but I eat japanese, chinese, mexican, african, german, greek, italian, argentinian, iranian, etc, etc, etc.  You get the point.  Why don't you come out to CM Xara's event this weekend and demonstrate your knowledge of the different games of capoeira.  I'd love to see you play regional, banguela, miudinho, etc.  I'm sure you can show us all the correct way to play those games.

Again, Doug, I don't do Contemporary Capoeira and I don't do Regional!!!  Lets make that very clear!  And you don't do Angola (even though you think you do)!  What you do is not Angola and I have you on video (doing your best)...  I might just post it so that everyone can see what you think Angola is.  But if your truly believe that you know more ways to play than I do then just hold on to that fantasy...   There are a variety of ways to play inside of Angola and it is not necessary to learn "Regional Capoeira" or "Contemporary".  In fact, Doing Angola and Regional is like mixing oil and gasoline.  You just stick to your "Contemporary Regional" and when you think that you are ready to challenge me then you know where to find me!  I will bring my Black and Gold just for you...  In fact, I will wear my Whites so that you can try to get them dirty!  You make me laugh Doug...  I'm "LOLing" out loud right now

When I'm ready to challenge you???  I just told you that CM Xara's event is this weekend, but you won't go because you hang in small circles, so now it's up to me to "know where to find you".  Maybe you don't do Contemporary Capoeira or Regional, but what you DO is hide behind Angola so that everyone has to play by your rules and you always have the home court advantage.  You're a chump.

I never claimed to be an angoleiro.  And looking at your attitude and very limited understanding of capoeira, I wouldn't want to be.  No thank you. You're the best spokesman against capoeira angola that there is.  Keep talking.

Your knowledge of  japanese, chinese, mexican, african, german, greek, italian, argentinian, and iranian foods does not increase your knowledge of Thia Food...  Although you may "eat" all of these foods (in your analogy) how many do you have a throw knowledge of?  I don't need to eat everything in order to understand food...  I only need a throw knowledge of the purpose of food.  I need to understand the good food from the bad food and I need to know what needs to be cook and what is better when eaten raw.  You can eat a wide range of food if you wish but if what you are eating doesn't add to  your life then you are just a "well rounded" fool...

When I look at youtube videos of banguela, miundinho and regional, My eyes see the same thing at different speeds...  Is that the difference between the three games? How fast you play?

I don't claim to be able to "show you the correct way" to do something that I don't even do.  I never suggested that I was better at what YOU do then you are!  I just do not happen to believe that knowing regional, contemporary and Angola makes you a more rounded Capoeirista.  I believe that Angola is a complete Circle.

Some quick observations:

IMO (and many others) Capoeiraistas, especially angolieros, should and can go play ANYWHERE.. the ones whom you claim your lineage to, Jason, certainly did, no?  So whats the deal?  Sounds like a cop out to me.

Also.. since your teacher, or whomever is instructing you on what capoeira is hasnt told you.. The term "regional" refers to a small, and specific group(s) of capoeira, who practice and play faithful to M.Bimbas style of capoeira.  You use it a bit to describe anything not what you deem is not "angola".. please stop.

Maybe there's something wrong with your eyes.

You're saying that this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8c0B6DH7s&feature=related

Looks like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1otMyOZ8o4&feature=related

and they both look like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIuSAeacaM

This starts as Miudinho, and thenchanges at :32, then goes back to Miudinho at 1:08, then changes again at 1:48, notice the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLs1vhXprLc

Well said.

I have referred to Regional, Contemporary Regional and Contemporary Capoeira...  So, no, I do not refer to Regional as anything that is not "Angola"...

M. Canguru???

Well, opinions are like Ass Holes...  Everybody has one!  Yes, we can play anywhere but don't tell me that we "should".  No one in my lineage spends much time at  Regional or Contemporary Rodas.  If we do, there is a reason that we went.  That doesn't mean that we can't but, there has to be a specific reason for us to go.  I will say that I have gone to Mestre Boneco's Friday night rodas before.  Not to play but I go because I love the energy that they produce in his academy...

Have you ever wondered why Angoleiros don't go to your workshops???  But you guys do come to ours... Why is that?

@Espantalho

It seems in these thread we quote eachother over and over so the same statements and messages so I avoid a quote here, and I suck at it!

Anyway perhaps

'try to dirty their clothes' has 2 meanings I think.

One would be to try and beat them/best them.  To take them down, to strike them with force and meaning.  As a result they woudl also get dirty.  And the dirt would be a sign you beat them.  In a sense of fair play though it woudl be the goal to demonstrate certain things which result in the dirtying.

In my suggestions that you throw mud, my point is simply it is easier to get your clothes dirty than to actually kick your ass.  Naturally kicking one's ass, or getting one's ass kicked, also involves getting dirty!

I did go to the link you posted, and I did read the article, but I did not find what you stated.  I thought it was an article of an interview with mestre Pastinha, maybe the link was wrong?  or misdirected?  OR was there additional text that I missed from Mestre Bola Sete.  Was this a translation or a direct quote or a paraphrase?  Alas...I wont refute it.

It is plausible that they wore white and wanted to show, not getting dirty as a show of prowess.  And it is possible that they would push eachother, to try and cause the other guy to fall or get dirtied, and then call him out if he did get dirtied...kinda like hazing someone who fell asleep with their boots on (if you know that tradition)....

The tradition I am familiar with is practicing Capoeira in secret in small groups whilst master and wife was in church. And on that day you wore your best clothes, nice shoes and whites.  And you would strike the opponent with the clean toe of the shoe, you would grip under the cuff, pulling to touch the inside of hte clothes, not grab the cloth with your hand in a way that left a mark, hooking the back of hte heel with the topu fo hte shoe, pushing rasteiros with the front or side of the top of the shot, on the top of the shoe/side of hte shoe, avoiding placing the sole of your shoe anywhere on their body, pushes and pulls.  careful not to be unneccessarily dirty.

Yes getting dirty was a sign you got beat, but you tried to dirty or beat them in a fair way, not just get them dirty, cuz if you are doing handstands and trudginer around in dirt or mud, its rather easy to get the other guy dirty, and your self in the process.

So this was my feeling on it.  But I will go back and relook the link and stuff.

Sorry for the sailor talk.  Didn't realize you were so sensative. ;)

I dont go to, nor have I been to, nor would I ever go to, ANY workshops by anyone in your group, least of all you.  Where, or who more importantly, WHO invites you anywhere to teach?? and I dont mean the manager down at the kids center either.

BTW..Ive seen your R&B capoeira videos too.. and dude sorry, but youre shit aint that nice.. especially to be calling out and judging other peoples games.  You could benefit from some consistant classes with a MESTRE much less a CM or professor.. humble yourself.

Also.. "my workshops"?! you mean what.. my group? my Mestre? me? what the fuck exactly are you talking about, son?  Weve had plenty of OPEN MINDED angolieros/as take class with Mestre.  YOUR belief that you dont have anything to learn from someone who isnt in "your" faction tells me alot.  You only WISH your angola game was half as nice as most advanced contemporary.. or in your mind "regional".. student.

Its like youre reading out of the Angoliero Cliche manual..good luck with your career dude.  i would suggest looking to other angolieros as role models for your career (since other mestres have nothing for you to learn).  Cabello, Beiramar, Russo, Andrea, Daniel, Cobrinha, Claudio.  I can help you out since Ive actually travelled outside my academy, state, country, with my capoeira.

You have to scroll down to get to the quote.  Here, try this link

http://capoeira-connection.com/capoeira/2011/10/lecture-on-mestre-pastinha-and-capoeira-angola/

As far as the sailor talk.  I guess I just don't get why you would say who the fuck told you that, when I posted a direct quote with source and everything.  It should be abundantly obvious where I got the information.  It actually made me think of Boondock Saints II where the female special agent says "Fuck?  Is this really a fuck situation?  maybe a god damn or two, but fuck?"  So I guess it was the situation that you decided to use the sailor talk that bothered me.

But yeah, sailor talk is normal for me.  I do rock and roll for a living.

*double post

I find it funny that jason wants to call me out for not playing the perfect angola game when

1) I'm not an angoleiro

2) he won't play in someone else's roda.

Should my capoeira look like I come from jason's lineage?  Hell no.  Should I try to interact in the roda with people of that lineage?  Sure, why not?

jason wants to call me out for doing what he doesn't have the balls to do.  Now I want to see him go to a regional roda and play Mestre Bimba's regional so I can criticize his game.  Fair is fair.

 OK I saw the quote in context.

Ok its a literal interpretation I took to the extreme.  But yea I think he really means they played hard and rough, and if they bested the other guy that would get him dirty.  I don't think they played tag like you find in lots of contemporary/moderna, where in a very weak position of balance that jab out at the opponent at an akward angle.  I don7t like this kind of contact (and it happens in some 'Angola' circles as well, I'm not going int othis Angola vs. the world debate, not interested!) because the blows landed, the threats are a farse.  To me, any attempt to make contact, to strike, to threaten or mark a target should come from either a-a solid base of balance or b- a fluid motion.  force can be created through momentum, which is a primary source of energy for strikes etc. in Capoeira, or from raw power, like what is more common in strikes of mui thai, boxing, Karate etc. that involves lots of footwork, not that much unlike that of traditional Capoeira Angola.  Anyway I see peopel contorting and throwing some inverted kick on the end and I'm like, pfffffft.  There is never gonna be any force on that.  Some flicks of the wrist and feet may not require force, but the contexts for that are called iwht specific traditions, games toques etc...I digress.

Anyway thanks for the better link . Iwas able to see the right article this time.

 To me an absolutist view that someone must entertain others Capoeira in order to be correct/good/acceptable is rather self-righteous

I see where you are coming from to say that if he doesn't want to come to your rodas that you think he is self-righteous, but that simply is not the case.  I do agree though the way it is expressed or explained could seem as such.

I'm going to attempt to explain my perspective using language as an example.

I love language, study and speak a few to relative degrees.

Now I could make the absolutist statement that in order to be a good communicator, to be an expert of language one must be multilingual, they must entertain others langauges, must try to learn and express in a multitude of lingual context.   I could claim that refusal to study or learn a language is the sign of a bad communicator.  However that is not true.

Some of the greatest communicators in the world, authors, neurolinguists, psychologists, salesman, conman etc. and so forth are staunch monolinguals.

There could be an argument that mediocre proficiencies in a variety of languages leaves people with rather shallow undeveloped communication skills, sufficient to handle daily matters, casual relations, but insufficient for things like langauge arts (poems, aurthoring etc.), psycholinguistics or neurolinguistics

The truth is both approaches work.  They are related things but seperate things.

A small bit of proficiency in 10 related but seperate things is not mastery of all of them, or the even mastery of the field they all fall within.

Familiarity with a wide variety of 'Capoeira' is not mastery of Capoeira and it should not be confused as such.  You seem to want to (and its not just you but many people with certain political agendas in the Capoeira world) make a class of Capoeira which is universal and all reaching and to create a new set of knowledge or standards to judge all practitioners of Capoeira by.  This is self-righteous and frankly unfair.

Requiring people to speak English, as an example, is unfair.  But its often what is done in world politics, science, academia and so forth in given circles.  People are judged on what language they bring to the table.

Perhaps you don't want to be judged by whether or not you are an Angoleiro and you feel some implication that you are being judged in such a way.  You would like there to be a more generic 'Capoeira' so that your non-Angoleiros status (a lable you proudly place on yourself, which saddens me, to dissassociate with an Africanizing lable wilst devoting your life to an artform rooted in Africa)....  I digress...

Surely if brother Jason wants to stick with his tradition, and to master it, within itself, there can be no argument against that.  No reasonable grounded, fair argument.  The same that if he wants to write books in English before learning latin, surely it should be acceptable.

In the case of Capoeira though it is suggested, and I believe, that we need to learn Portuguese.  Why?  (Ok I know I am playing on words and taking the anology to reality here ;) because so much of the roots and history and master practitioners of Capoeira (whichever tradition) is rooted in Brazil and the Portuguese langauge.  Becuase it is a source, there is a strong need for Capoeiristas to study Portuguese.

Now in the case of modern Capoeira traditions, the source, the root, is Capoeira Angola.  For many it is also regional, a reference to BAHIA.  Personally I think that one could not call his art by an African name, because the nationalists wanted something national, he chose to call his art by his region, a regional cultural reference...really going back to the same point, that the practitioners and root of the art is the Afrobrazilians- in Brazilian portuguese of that era referred to as Angoleiros if they played the game.  Its a very Capoeirista way of saying what can't be said wilst not saying it, but very much meaning it. Surely Bimba did not mean that regional was the region of south of Brazil, he meant Bahia, and he meant his sub-culture within Bahia, a very segregated place, then and even today.  Think about it.  Regional means Bahia.  And all these people claiming their roots in Regional not Angola are often coming out of the south of Brazil.  Meaning their roots are still in the north of Brazil, still in Bahia...where all the Angoleiros come from.  Its one in the same . You can not excape your roots, and you shouldn't try too!!!

Now that leaves a need for you to study about Angola if you want to understand yourself.  The way that an English speaker can't help but know a little latin.

Now you wnat to turn on a Jason and say that in order for his latin to be correct he must learn Spanish and English and blaw blaw blaw.

Annd well he can very sell say that he is fine with his version of latin and its true.  And it is in fact, all the spawns of the origin which need the origin, but htey don't need eachother, outside of their common roots.  French people don't need to learn SPanish.  English speakers don't need to learn Italian.

Is it interesting?  fun?  Enlightening?  Certainly helpful at times.  But to say it is absolutely necessary...is a stretch.

Where is the "like" button???

Aqui!

But it does not work

There are sooooo many @SSumptions on this here thread, it just seems that we fighting for the sake of fighting or disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Why is it so hard to leave your egos outside the game circle??

You're welcome.

Good post, but I think you are misunderstanding my viewpoint.

One thing that M. Acordeon has told us (and I'm paraphrasing here) is that when we go to events, take workshops, etc, the point is not to learn a new sequence, new movements, etc (not that there is anything wrong with learning them if), but the point is to see how the capoeira that we train and that we learn translates to other peoples capoeira.  How do interact with someone else from another school?  Can I take my capoeira and have an interaction with someone that trains somewhere else?  The point is to have an interaction with another capoeirista.  So I'm not looking to create a generic capoeira.  Diversity is cool.  It's one of those things that makes capoeira in todays world so interesting.  It's definitely more interesting than if everyone played the exact same way.  Now why would I be proud to be a non-angoleiro?  My point is that jason is a perfect representation of the worst angoleiro stereotype.  I wouldn't want to be associated with that or his quotes from the "Angoleiro cliche manual".  That's what turns me and so many others off of and away from capoeira angola, so if you want to be sad, be sad that jason (and others like him) are turning so many people off of capoeira angola.  Now if jason can't go to other rodas and interact with other capoeiristas that are not of his lineage, then it is fair to say that his capoeira is limited, whether he "mastered" it or not.

All of the rodas that I have seen you at have been those of your same lineage.  Do you ever try branching out?

And by "your rules", what I mean is that I see each rodas as kind of under the house rules of whoever is running the roda.  They allow certain things, allow people to play a certain way, don't allow certain things, play music a certain way, you get my point.  You only play in rodas under your lineage.  Certainly not my lineage or other similar lineages, so yes, you want to be protected by your "house rules".

I will be at CM Xara's event on Saturday.  See you there.

Daniel playing in Mestre Acordeon's roda at 2:46.  Proof that angoleiros CAN play in other rodas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imn84e6DmKg&feature=related

Mestre Boa Gente playing in other rodas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcCryOZ6kB4

I guess angoleiros don't have to ONLY play in angola rodas.

I have not said no suggested that Angoleiros "can't" play at other rodas.  That is just a figment of your imagination...  There is no need to "prove" something that was never contested.  So you are either just being silly or you truly haven't been keeping up with what I have said.  Either way, I do look forward to seeing you.  It will not be at this event that you keep talking about though...

@ Espantalho1...

Just quickly, I do not consider myself an Angoleiro but I think my philosophy aligns more with the traditional(ist) view; I do not necessarily agree with PGCA Brother Jason but I do get his sentiments and as you see shiffd also in more words do get his sentiments. I think many moons ago, I had stated that there was something underlying "the pink elephant in the room" if you will, lo and behold shiffd puts it in view and yet it HAS been relegated to the background again. This is ONE of the BIGGEST issues with capoeira as we know it...it is however nearly never discussed, I know it is difficult to articulate... but look at how many things African are put in view and yet not in view!?!? A paradox isn't it?...and here we are battling over stupid crap...when in fact it is the ideology that is creating the "separatedness". I am not calling you out so much as PGCA Brother Jason...this is Ego, my capoeira is better...I am an angoleiro and you are not...? mine is the OG yours isn't? Mine is the newest...etc, etc ALL BS!!! This is HUMAN crap...politics, the same thing that brought no stole a people and here you are feeding into it. BTW I do agree with Mestre Acordeons POV, what kills me is that you both especially understand this succintly and yet cannot DECONSTRUCT crap you built up over the years. So if the point is to have an INTERREACTION with another being, after this has passed...do you then reflect and desconstruct ideas you once had or CONSTRUCT even more walls?

Finally if one person actually lets you state what you have stated then I would seriously ask why get into the art of capoeira? I mean I could take this into several poetic analogies but I am sure you can see there is something not right with what both you and Manhoso have said...pls build more walls!! <--sarcasm

I knew you wouldn't be at that event before I told you about it.  You prefer smaller events.  Ones that you can handle.  I certainly wouldn't see you playing at a larger event like Daniel was in the video.

Protected from what???  You truly believe that I play in Angola Rodas to be protected from you???  You have got to be joking.  Make clear what you are saying because everything you say will be used against you in the Roda...  Don't fool yourself into thinking that I am not capable of getting physical in the roda.  Because from everything you have said, you have let me know that when we play, your intention is to get physical with me.  So I will play you accordingly.  I will not be at CM Xara's event on Saturday but I will be coming to one of UCA's Rodas just to answer your challenge to me.  You call me a "Chump"???  Make sure to call me that to my face when I see you!  But if you cheese up, I will remind you of what you said right before we "play".

I am not coming to the Roda because it is from 6 to 7:30 and I teach class from 6 to 8 on Saturdays.  I would not be coming for any other reason than to play you and we can do that at one of your Rodas.  I don't give a rats ass about what Daniel does...  Daniel is Daniel...  If he feels that playing in a contemporary or Regional Roda makes him a better Angoleiro then that is on him.  Has nothing to do with me!  Playing Capoeira at a large event doesn't mean squat!!!

In the same article that you posted, Mestre Waldemar said this:

White Suit

Mestre Waldemar doesn’t know capoeira regional. For him, there exists only capoeira angola, created in Brazil. Even so, he states: “I don’t exactly know how capoeira started. It didn’t happen in my lifetime, and I’m not going to tell lies or say that I knew people who I never even saw. What I know for sure is that capoeira is different. In the old days, we played wearing starched white suits and impeccable shoes, and we didn’t get dirty. That is, unless the opponent was disloyal and stuck his foot onto us. But that was playing dirty; it’s not like today, where capoeiristas grab each other with their hands. In my time, capoeira was played only with the feet and head, in a fight of agility and quickness. The important thing was to have a good head and fast feet.”

Mestre Joao Grande said this in the article you posted:

Q:  Today very few Mestres call the pair of capoeiristas to the foot of the berimbau to make an observation, give a hint, this type of thing. What do you think of that?

A:  It’s true. They don’t call them. Sometimes one is stepping on the other’s clothes and even then the berimbau doesn’t call. Any little beating in the game, and the players should be called to the foot of the berimbau, they shake hands  and begin again; nothing even has to be said, but they have to be called. We have to insist on the value of tradition.

Mestre Curió made the comment that “The capoeirista doesn’t have to hit in order to show his skill.”  He said: “There are many parts of mandinga. There’s the mandinga of black magic and the mandinga of the capoeirista’s cleverness, when he can really call himself a capoeirista. That’s what mandinga is: it’s wisdom, it’s being able to hit your adversary but not doing so; you show that you didn’t hit him because you didn’t want to.”

Again you are misunderstanding me.  I did call you a chump because you want to call me out for not playing "angola" the correct way, when in fact I am going to an environment that is different from where I train or what I am used to in order to have an interaction with other capoeiristas of other lineages.  This is something that up until now, you have been unwilling to do.  I was challenging you to try something different and to expand outside of that little box that you seem to have put yourself in.  Yes, I said that you are protected by your house rules.  In other words, you are more comfortable playing in your home environment where the organization of the roda, the music, the style of play is something that you are use to.  That gives you an advantage.  Now if you want to turn that into a fight or a grudge match, that really IS up to you, but that wasn't my point.

Actually, those are from different articles on the same page of that website.  Perhaps they are talking about different time periods than M. Bola Sete.  Capoeira is not a snapshot in time.  If the rule of your roda is to not touch the person at all if they are wearing white, I have no problem with trying to play that way.  Now does that push me outside of my normal style of play and give you an advantage?  Sure it does.  So if one person is wearing white and the other isn't, does that mean that only the person wearing white not get touched?  And since as you pointed out that those are not specifically your rodas, but rodas of other people from the same lineage, does the rule apply to those rodas as well?  Do all angoleiros play that way or just in your rodas?  I just want to be sure that I get it right.

When asked this question:

What is the main difference between the “Old Capoeira” which you learned with Mestre Pastinha, and the “Capoeira of Today”?

Mestre Bola Sete also said:

Mestre João Pequeno said something that sums it all up: “The Old Capoeira was less aggressive and more dangerous… today capoeira is more aggressive and less dangerous.” Today we see very fast blows, but the blow hits only the air; it doesn’t even come close to one’s partner. He doesn’t even have to defend himself, because the blow doesn’t come close and doesn’t require him to dodge it. No, the capoeirista must to be forced to defend himself, because capoeira is essentially defensive.

The main fundamental of capoeira is defense and not attack… and today capoeiristas are learning more to attack.

Mestre Caiçara.. displaying original angola.

http://youtu.be/KFNKerTSHKw

First of all, All Capoeira de Angola is not from the same lineage...  I have been to FICA rodas (not from my lineage).  I have been to GCAP Rodas (not from my lineage) I have been to "Capoeira Angola de Sao Bento Grande" Rodas (not from my lineage).  I have been to Capoeira Batuque's "Angola Rodas" (not from my lineage)...  Every roda that I go to is an ""environment that is different from where I train".  Really, you have no clue.  To tell me that I am protected by my one house rules is like telling a boxer in the ring that he is protected because he boxes other boxers...  Or a Chess player is protected because he only plays other chess players.  If every one at the rodas I go to play by the same rules, how does that give me an advantage???

Capoeira Angola is like a chess game in that the possibilities are limitless.  There is nothing to get use to.   You like to accuse others of having the "My Capoeira is Better Than Yours" mentality but isn't that what you are saying?  Yours is better because you "go out the Box" while us Angoleiros put ourselves into a "little Box"...

Now Lets put this "Chump thing back in context...

I said:

You responded:

"When I'm ready to challenge you???  I just told you that CM Xara's event is this weekend, but you won't go because you hang in small circles, so now it's up to me to "know where to find you".  Maybe you don't do Contemporary Capoeira or Regional, but what you DO is hide behind Angola so that everyone has to play by your rules and you always have the home court advantage.  You're a chump."

I wish Mestre Caicara was here to end this thread.

Yes, I get it.  You only play in angola rodas.  You don't do contemporary capoeira, you don't do regional, you won't get into those rodas and see how your capoeira translates, but you will criticize those players for getting in angola rodas to see how their capoeira translates.  We already established that.  Do you have something else to say?

As far as I know, all of those Angola rodas except for Capoeira Angola de Sao Bento Grande can trace, at least in part, their lineage back to M. Pastinha, so there is one exception but let's just say that you stay close to what you are comfortable with.

When we play, you bring all that  you have...  We will see who the "chump" is.

*yawn*

You know, there was a time when I didn't understand why certain capoeiristas would roll their eyes whenever someone mentioned  "capoeira angola".  Now, thanks to you, I understand that all too well.  Thank you for helping me to find a deeper understanding of what "capoeira angola" really is.

 It seems that your mestre has told you a certain way to go about developing, understanding and growing in Capoeira.  That is for you, his gift to you, his advice.  He is likely to give the same or similar advice to any Capoeiristas. 

There is a bit of bad blood forming between you and Jason.  You shouldn'T go so far though as to use what you undrestand of your mestres teaching as a judgement of his path in Capoeira.  He is not responsible to your impression of Capoeira, nor mine.  Nor are you in turn responsible for my vision.  Alas we are discussing here what our visions are, and it is naturally that we disagree.  I think we should try to be clear, and understanding about what is simply our opinion, rather than going as far as to suggest that someone is wrong, or that someone needs to do a certain thing or another.

I speak a lot in Japanese with Japanese Capoeiristas.  The issues or feelings about Angoleiro versus Capoeirista is simply not the same.  This issue/conflict/stereotypes you are talking about are actually pretty specific to the US.  In another country its another thing.  You might take a step back and consider how much of your negative feelings about what he is saying and what he is presenting is sourced in yourself.

That said, I do understand why you feel at odds, insulted, looked down upon, judged etc.  YOu do have a choice in the path of interpretation though.  I could try to make advice or suggestions for Brother Jason to express himself differently, however I believe he is being fairly honest and straightforward about how he feels.  I don't think he is asking us to agree with him. I think he is simply stating his case, rather being asked his position before even offering it in most cases.  And yo uare taunting him to come to a particular event and questioning his manhood, and making it rather personal.  WHich is fun to read about and I just hope you guys post hte video !  LOL

Anyway I think if a man is not interested in a particular event, then you should leave it be.  I'm the type to be pretty hopen about these things and go to lots of different events, and to play in whatever kind of roda etc.  I was at an event once where some people came in out of town and were visiting, and they were giving me some compliments and making statements aobut how it was cool that as an Angoleiro I was checkign out this other kind of event etc.  And then it went on to raggin on people who are 'closeminded' or whatever.  Then I chimed in saying that I had many friends, respected Capoeiristas, who did not come and probalby chose not to come because they did not like the Capoeira at that event.  These people were shocked.  I was in bed with teh enemy all the sudden.  I said it to their face 'People have a right to dislike your Capoeira, people have a right to NOT want to go to your rodas and events, if that is how they feel about it- and it doesn't invalidate their Capoeira'. ....  Man they wanted the conversation to end really quick.  This whole everybody is great free love stuff is just unrealistic.   Some people like all 31 flavors, some people are chill with plain vanilla or chocolate.  And it aint right or wrong either way.

BTW- It was in reference to an event where people who hadn't come were more interested in regional, and they didn't take much interest or liking to 'angola' and 'contemporary' events.  Its not an angola Vs or reigonal vs. things.  People from all walks have tendencies in some cases to stay inhouse and in others to look around a bit.  part of every groups vibes includes how much they vibe with other groups and how open their doors are or are not.

Thank you and good post.  You have provided some very good insight.

What's going on between me and jason goes back a little further than these recent posts.  He's done a lot of things that are pretty disrespectful and I myself would never do such as telling lies about my mestre, going online and quoting my mestre and trying to twist his words, stating my non-capoiera name on a public forum when I just told him it was disrespectful for him to do so, among other things like his recent "i'll post a video of you to show everyone that you don't play real angola".  That's not only disrespectful, but they are little cheap shots that he takes.  Good for him.  Probably says something about him in general.  If he pushes people and doesn't like when they push back, maybe he shouldn't be disrespectful in the first place.

@shiffd

Also, I'd like to say that asking jason to go to a larger event of another school isn't to taunt him, but if he is going to say things online like that there is nothing that he could learn from someone of another lineage because he trains the mother of all capoeira, he should really be prepared to go to those events and back that up.  Some people will take that as a challenge.  Not only that, but he is speaking from a place of not having any understanding of the other capoeiristas.  If he goes to large events and gets in the roda with high level capoeiristas from UCA, Cordao de Ouro, Senzala, etc, maybe his views on the subject might change.  I'm not saying this to taunt him, but I think it would be real good for his perspective and understanding of CAPOIERA as a whole.  If he wants to play me there, that's fine, but he should also get the experience of playing some high level capoeiristas of various schools and see if he still thinks that there is nothing that those schools can teach him.  He should do this at least a few times before deciding that it's not for him.

BTW, the fact that you said "The issues or feelings about Angoleiro versus Capoeirista is simply not the same.  This issue/conflict/stereotypes you are talking about are actually pretty specific to the US." is interesting to me.  I've heard this before from other people.  Why do you think this is?

I have never "lied" about your mestre...  I quoted what he wrote in his book word for word.  I am going to have to find the discussion of my facebook page and I will post it here.  You just didn't like the quote and tried to say that he meant something other than what he said.  Well, that is up to interpretation...  But I did not lie.  I said that Bibma took out Rituals and ceremonial aspects (or Africanisms) out of his capoeira and focused on the Fight.  I said that Bibma added other art forms to his capoeira and changed it to create his style.  I don't remember the quote that I used form Your Mestre but I will find it and post it again.

I posted your name to let you know that  you were not anonymous...  You were talking a lot of shit so I just wanted to be sure that you knew that I knew who you were.  Anonymous shit talkers are a dime a dozen.  Now you want to call me a CHUMP...  To me, those are fighting words and you should feel lucky that I am only going to come and play you in a physical "game" of Capoeira instead of coming to your academy and beating your monkey ass.  You are a prick and you are dicking around with the wrong person.  You don't know me very well.  And you need to be very careful as to how you talk to me.

I will repeat to you that there is nothing that I can learn from Contemporary or Regional Capoeira.  There are enough Angola Mesters and players and Professors for me to learn all that I need.  I don't need Regional and I don't need Contemporary.  Like it was so perfectly said before:  I don't need to study Spanish and French in order to understand Latin better.  The Spanish speakers and the French speakers should study Latin in order to understand their language better.  I understand why you feel that you may need to understand Angola but Yes, Angola is the Mother of Capoeira.  I don't care if you don't like that FACT!!!  That is something that you have to grapple with.  You will not find any Angoleiros that come to study Contemporary.  Show me one!!!  They may come to your rodas but they are not learning form your teachers...

Doug, you are a prick!  And when we play, I will make a "chump" out of you.  And if you think that you want to take it to the next level after that, we can do that too...  You are a Chump and a Punk.  I don't usually talk to people like this but I read all of the sarcasm that you spew on this form...  Don't fuck with me Doug.

Okay, let's try a slightly different approach.

Me not allowing you to spread misinformation about my Mestre doesn't qualify me as a prick.  I don't know too many capoeiristas that would go for you spreading misinformation about their mestres.  The fact that you would want to do so and then try to defend yourself in doing so DOES say a lot about your character.

Now if you don't train with Profesores, Contra Mestres, or Mestres of Regional or Contemporary Capoeira Regional, and you don't go to their rodas and play them in their roda, then you don't know what they have to offer.  So by admitting that you don't train with them and don't go to their rodas and play with them, you are admitting that you are arguing that they have nothing to teach from a place of not knowing (ignorance).  I don't know too many people that would respect that.

You can call me whatever names you want...sticks and stones, but what you CAN'T do is spread misinformation about my Mestre without me calling you out on it.  Now you can get mad about that, but it reminds of something someone once said to me "sometimes we get mad in direct proportion to how wrong we really are".  Think about that.

What "misinformation" did I spread???

And I did not call you a prick for defending your Mestre...  You are a prick despite that!  But what misinfo. did I spread?  I I am still trying to find the quote that I used but it was a Quote.  If you remember what it was then post it and let everyone decide for them self.

And I have a question for you...  Are you a homosexual?  If you are not, how do you know???  Maybe you should make out with a dude or two otherwise you will never know what they have to offer you...  "if you don't go to their parties then you don't know what they have to offer.  so by admitting that you don't make out with gays and you don't go to their parties and "play" with them you are arguing that they have nothing to offer you from a place of not knowing (ignorance).  I don't know too many people who would respect that.  LOLing again...

Agitando a minha cabeça

Can the both of you police yourselves!?!? @ brother Jason little children may have to read this things or maybe you don't care? Why do you men get so angry and ruin it for everybody

Oi Espantalho,

I'd drop it if I was you. It's fairly blatantly obvious from the tone of his 80 posts (of which I'd guess at least 75 are nothing more than argumentative, elitist and vaguely threatening bullshit) that he is a complete and utter fuckwit. From the whole ' angoleiros have nothing to learn from contemporary capoeira but all contemorary / regional guys should study angola', right through to the 'you're lucky I don't climb out of my mama's basement to kick your ass because you don't know just how much of a hard ass motherfucker I really am', it's just silly.

Jason,

I actually CAN see where you are coming from with your whole 'I believe in pure angola, so I don't need the rest to be complete' spiel. really. Even though I do not play angola myself, as a contemporary capoeirista, I feel much the same about Maculele. It has no role in MY capoeira world. And likewise, I have the greatest of respect for the game, and philosophy, of angola, and find it ridiculous how many contemporary players figure that if they slow down their movements and get a little lower, they are angoleiros.

The problem is though, that you don't seem to see that YOUR reality and beliefs system is not necessarily right, nor wrong, for everyone. It's just not as simple as your whole 'because I believe it it must be the ONLY way' tact. End result is that as I said above, you are coming off as a right wanker. Which is a shame, because you are clearly passionate, and seemingly quiet intelligent. But your current tact is doing little but perpetuate the stereotype of angoleiros as elitist, stuck up snobs. And there are plenty of good people, both on this forum and across the greater capoeira community, who have worked too hard for too long to eliminate that stereotype for you to come along and be so, well, CLICHED.

So how about this. You two obviously live near enough to be familiar. If you are interested in clearing this up, rather than posturing and showing off on a computer screen, why not actually talk it over face to face........ You know, like MEN.

Now can we PUHLEASE let this fucking troll thread DIE!

I want to say that I did not originate the thought that Contemporary Capoeiristas need to study Angola...  Contemporary Capoeiristas have told me this.  I have heard this quite often.

I also am not the one who just decides to say that "there is nothing for me to learn from contemporary"...  I only bring that up when people confront me and tell me that "I need to expand my knowledge" by learning about other styles of Capoeira.  I don't agree with that.  It doesn't make me arrogant because I reject that concept...  It is not for me.  I don't have to participate in it to know that...  I can just look at it and see that it is not for me.  I am not condemning contemporary Capoeira.  I challenge anyone to show me where I said that "My Capoeira is better than yours"...  That is not where I am coming from...

And I agree...  Doug and I will settle this in person.

To add to my last point:  The one who is arrogant is the one who says that I need to study their style to be complete...  I am not the arrogant one because I reject that notion.  I started a new thread just so that anyone can tell me what they think that I need to learn form Contemporary Capoeira that I can't learn within the Angola System.  I believe that this concept comes form Contemporary schools that teach "Angola".  There are a lot of Contemporary Mestres who tell their students to learn Angola so that they will be well rounded.  But then those Contemporary Students assume that since they should learn Angola that conversely, Angoleiros should learn Contemporary Capoeira.

I hope that you read the other thread that I posted and I really want someone to tell me what they think that Contemporary has that Angola doesn't as it relates to Capoeira.

If we both drink Milk to survive but I like Chocolate in my Milk, who am I to tell you that for you to get the true benefits of the Milk, you must try it with Chocolate?  And then I say that if you don't try it with chocolate, you will never truly understand the Milk.  You have do do what I do in order to understand.  Well, that is what Doug is saying to me.  My Milk is no good without his chocolate.  I tell him that "I don't need your chocolate in my milk because it has no benefit for me...  It changes the milk to something else and I don't want it...  Why is that considered arrogance???

Grande, you're right.  I'm done with this thread.  Thank you for pointing that out.

I have one final point to make though.  Although I'm not gay, jason's choice of picking on homosexuals (homophobia) shows something about his personality.  Like his narrow mindedness about capoeira, he is not tolerant of people who are different from him.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot

I hope his students are reading this.

Jason, I never said that you need to train other styles of capoeira.  I just think that it's ridiculous for you to say that they have nothing that you can learn from them when you haven't trained them or haven't even gone and played in their roda and tried to use YOUR capoeira to have an interaction with them in THEIR environment.  Maybe a better way for you to state it would be "I am not interested in learning their capoeira".  If what they do is not for you, that's fine, but don't put them down by saying that they have nothing to offer.  I also don't think you should put down people trying to expand their understanding of capoeira as a whole either.  I never claimed to be an angoleiro.  I have gone to angola rodas and used my capoeira to have an interaction with capoeiristas of a different lineage.  There is a difference.  And my Mestre never told me to train angola.  As far as going to angola rodas, my Mestre never told me to go or don't go, just like M. Bimba never told him to go or or not to go to angola rodas.  When I see you next, we will talk in person.  Hopefully we can both be mature about it.

 I hope you guys post a video!!!

to answer your question-

People outside of Brazil, and some within, (including me) don't grow up with Capoeira around them.  We are surrounded by different practices and different types of value and worth as people.  Kids on teh playground, in class and just anywhere they socialize are very much invested in status.  Its normal for human beings.

Identity, status, all of that is very very relative to knowledge and achievement of cultural forms, pasttimes.  Music, sports, games.  Fighting.  All of it.

The system and process for sharing this information and for evaluating it is different culture to culture language to language.

We don7t just suddently decide we want to leanr this foreign culture, this foreign artform.  We might tell ourselves that.  I might tell myself, hey one day I just decided to learn Capoeira Angola.  Unfortunatley its not true.  We saw something that interested us, formed ideas about it and integrated it into our already existing identity/worldview.  Sometimes later we may or may not become aware of this other worldview, and we may or may not atempt to take it on.

  I am still learning about it, still learning to even speak Portuguese for gods sake.  There is no way that my understanding of this artform and my relationship with other practitioners of the art is the same as people in other parts of the world.  My American culture upbringing is the first basis for my understanding of Capoeira.  Everything I think it is, every reason I do it, is fairly centered (atleast initially in the beginning) in my cultural heritage.

So now that I am in Japan and kicking it with Japanese Capoeiristas...it is only natural that their way of internalizing and understanding the art- their reasons to go to practice, to study to learn etc. are different then that of Americans.

And surprise surprise the relations between students of X, Y or Z here is not the same in America.  Recently I spoke about it over drinks and food with a Japanese Capoeira Angola Mestre (attended a workshop/roda).  He had actually been to the states and knew some of what Capoeira was like there, and has spent extensive time in Brazil so a perspective of what it is like there.  STill he was very shocked//appalled at some of the things that go on in America between 'styles' and 'schools' allthough he understood it because he'd spent some time in the states.  Normally the relations between Capoeiras in the US is so fucked up its impossible to explain to Japanese people.  Americans are very.....anal/defensive/sensitive?  Its hard to explain.  We just have a lot of people running around with overcompensation issues.  Japanese are much more cohesive by nature so they just don't have as much bad blood.  The particular workshop I was at, the Angola Mestre had invited a Contra Mestre to co-teach the event and he lead some music workshops/they lead together.  The contra-mestre was from a contemporary background.  For Japanese its a non-issue.

Not to say that the japaense don't ahve their own issues within the artform.  From my perspective they veyr veyr much do, have major issues with learning anything foreign.  I will save that for another time/forum.

What I believe Americans tend to do wtih Capoeira is to turn it into a duality, which isn't so different than ultimately what happens in Brazil per se.  examples of dualities= Rep vs. democrat.  white vs. black.  rich vs. poor.  crip vs. blood.  man vs. woman.  pro-choice vs. pro-life, right vs. left.  good vs. evil.  god vs. satan.  Yes or No on your latest ballot.  eastside westside.  rivalries.  so on and so forth.  The list goes on and on.  The same tendency for dualities exist in Brazil though, and Europe and English speaking cultures.  So there is some common stuff you'll find through Europe, Brazil and US etc.  But each has its own take.  I hear Europe and US is veyr different usually. 

The Japanese are an Asian people.   Duality simply isn't how they look athe world, at religon, at politics, at society.  They have a pluralistic perspective, in ways which is more akin to hte African world view of the Angoleiros, and of Capoeira Angola, but then again still a seperate thing alltogether.  Not so important to define people is right or wrong.  Or to interpret peoples preferences and choices as for or against you.  There is not such a need to hold people to being pro or con, and niether isn'T grey, its not on the fence.  Its hard to explain if you haven't really lived it.  To see a rainbow and not try to divide the colors into two categories or for example define which colors you like and which you don't (ultimately leading back to two categories)

My example would be that you and Grande have really felt/interpreted that Brother Jason is dissing X Capoeira.  Its a needto see his statemetns as for or against.  Agree or stongly disagree.  There is no just, thinks different.  To some extent the way he has worded things/expressed himself is at issue, alas he is American too, so although he is cultural adapting the worldview of an Angoleiro for many many years now he still, like me, has an tendency, especially in a European language like ENglish, to express things in way which feeds into a dualistic worldview.  But you read into things what you are capable of understanding.  The old cliche 'people hear what they want to hear' .

It is simply odd for us to have a conversation at all which doesn't fit the cultural construct of the very language we are speaking in.  When people describe asian religons in English there is usually 1 of two responses- #1 it sounds like complete gibberish/nonsense  #2 an attempt to reclarify, 'rationalize' and redefine the presented philosophy in dualistic terms, to clarify what the belief is for and what it is against- since it is unlikely that a literal translation would clarify such things.

The same happens when you explain Capoeira

WHen you explain a western religon in Enlgish there is two responses #1 agreement/belief  #2 disagreement/disbelief

It is rare for someone to fail to understand the premise or beliefs of a western religon.   Conversely, when presented in English, most people will give the first response above (#1 sounds like complete gibberish/nonsense) to any asian religon or philosophy.

Edit- clarification/another example-  When you talk with japanese about western religons, like say christianity- it is not normal for them to tell you if they believe/disbelieve.  Because its not normal for them to decide.  If you ask them, do yo ubelieve god exists- you'll find out that they haven'T even got t othe point of being agnostic. The need to ask and answer the question is not an immediate necessity the way it is for a westerner. Naturally if asked they wil ldecided, and if held to it, they'll say, mostly likely, I don't believe.  But its not normal for them to get to the point of disbelieving (or believing) anyone elses ideas.  They are usually content to just hear them.  maybe for get them, and they will usually not understand why we get so heated about who does or does not believe in god.   Its really rather puzzling to them actually.

Wow!  That was good!  Thanks for the perspective.  I've actually heard before that the language that you are speaking (thinking) in can affect your thought process.  Thank you for bringing me a new way of looking at things.

Grande:

Hi everyone!

Capoeira is for life! a way of living..

Respect to all those contributed in forming capoeira and raised people awareness

Anyone interested please have a look at my website and tell me what you think :) I would really much appreciate any feedback!thank you!

http://capoeira.com.gr

@ Shiffd,

As always it is good to read what you have to say. It kills me when people open their mouth to say "oh you people can talk", "this is overly verbose" etc, etc and yet they do capoeira...you are navigating through this world...a time traveller in your own right; been straight to the point may not always yield the thing you want...you may have to go in circles...yes it is "inefficient" to some...but you get to see the beauty of this thing we call life. The older generations understood this, older cultures understand this and for sure the traditions of Africans who came here embraced this. It is one reason why a "simple" question is never simple!! d-:

Shiffd I can definitely relate with the Japanese idea of a more cohesive culture, not to say the American culture isn't cohesive...nor am I also suggesting the Japanese are a homogeneous society or culture...it seems like different lines of consonance. The most easiest way to look is at their business ethics; Japan versus how the American conducts business. We still use a traditional ideas of management, hierarchy..., getting the piece of the pie, individualistic them versus us mentality. Whereas the tradition the Japanese have fostered is a more flatter organization, we all get the pie, communal we mentality. Of course this is generalization but it applies to our very idea of capoeira schools here in the US. I have commented on this very issue several times and over...I won't devalue the world view, but it is very myopic at least within the scope of capoeira. Some of us can't really separate or divorce this perception just because we are out of the physical roda we came to play in.

Shiffd says:

I have concluded it is not solemnly an American thing, rather a Western Culture thing...and increasingly becoming a Westernized ideology. We can thanks Descartes...more and more people tend to do the cartesian divide. Yes it has its place, but the view is a supposition...anyways another matter altogether people around don't like to turn on when it is not pertaining to their own circle. I personally got PGCA Brother Jason, but definitely did not agree with the method used but I also know people hide behind their keyboards to "Talk the talk" and don't "walk the walk"...not referring to anyone in particular but all in general.

Capoeira can be looked at anyway you choose to look at it...it is you that agrees to it, no different than someone asking you "how many planets, known collectively in our solar system?"...many we say what they were taught, many even go so far as removing Pluto...because this is what you were told...Agreement!

English is an interesting language because it is very analytical...the problem, no the issue is that of the mind doing the analysis...and so English then creates limitations; those of us that have the luck if you will to speak languages not related in any shape or form to English know first hand the difficulty to translate and just reduce the translations to symbolism or allegories in hopes the energy behind the word can be formulated into something close enough to be agreed upon (or disagreed) either ways when one moves away from the dualistic way of viewing to the world, I believe another world (perhaps another iteration) opens up. In ifa, it is said you simply expand your range of vision/scope. In Holism, dualism exist and has its place...Angoleiro, regionalista etc, etc are only names to confer meaning...in the end, we are still a fabric of the universe, this world...we call our selves humans, there are some within the capoeira construct that innerstand this and their lifestyle is dictated by this...and then there are the others who simply see things different. Can I respect this difference, even if mine is NOT respected? hmmmn?

Thanks again Shiffd!!

fight the damn spam!!!!