I recently have reached my 20 year birthday in Capoeira.  I've played in Regional rodas and Angola rodas.  I've played in various places throughout the world.  But for some reason I am wondering about a question most people with less than a year tend to ask....What is the difference between Capoeira Angola and Regional?  No, really, what is the difference? Thanks.

Good to see you back on these forums.  My opinion is that I don't think M. Bimba ever intended Regional to be a "style" of capoeira.  It was just capoeira.  He changed the name to get around a law.  That is all.

hats?

Congrats Big brother, you should come to LA to grace us with your presence dare I say old man lol

Well I am in America now so I am told a zebra is a white horse with black stripes, however in Africa everyone will tell you a zebra is a Black horse with white stripes. Anyone who says there is no difference in how capoiera is approached is lying, but I understand aspects of esu a little bit, so if you say there is a difference you are also a lair!

Are you talking our modern idea of "regional" or de bimba? and where does this leave me? I know there is a difference it takes few weeks to understand this, but it takes yeeeears to understand that one is only an extension of the other. For me expression is the only difference!

The shoes? The shoes ? Its gotta be the shoes.

Peace Chicago:

From what I understand, Regional originally did not use Ladainhas or Chamadas...  I do notice that some  regional schools today do sing some Ladainhas and some have now adopted Chamadas.  Regional also only uses one Berimbau while Angola utilizes 3.  But somehow, I think that you are referring more to the movements than the set up of the roda and the songs...

I think that Angola has more martial dance elements involved then the Regional Capoeira.  I don't believe that Regional utilizes Corpo Fechado or jogo de mandinga...  I believe that Angola has more "transition postures" which opens up the door to more counter strikes...

Lunch break is over...

hats shoes and energy, I'm coming at this from the other end as a beginner but from my viewpoint (uncluttered as it is by any proper technical understanding of capoeira) the difference is the energy from the roda. Angola rodas energy are generated by people sitting down and singing, creating a particular, heartbeat and mindset. Longer games for me means everyone can relax  a bit and just watch the game rather than plan their game. Contemporary rodas (and I think regional) have energy generated by people standing up clapping hence being a part of carrying the rhythm,( rather than just moving in it as angolians do); planning their iniement entry into the roda. Dunno if that helps.

Are the differences between M. Bimba's regional and other "styles" any different than let's say the differences between the capoeira of M. Joao Pequeno and M. Leopoldina or the difference between the capoeira of M. Leopoldina and M. No?  Different Mestres choose how they want to run their roda, run their academies, play their music, teach capoeira, etc.  This is true of all capoeira.  These are the "differences" that we are speaking of.  It really is all just capoeira.

In my understanding, the 3 berimbaus was largely agreed upon in an encounter with many mestres in 1969 where the mestres met to discuss common aspects of capoeira including music (not that 3 berimbaus wasn't used before that time).  Do all angola schools use 3 berimbaus?

No, the shirts are tucked in.  It's gotta be the shirts.

Damnit.. I tuck my shirt in, and I wear shoes.

We may have to dig up the Ask the Goodboy thread.

I don't see anything wrong with an Angoleiro rocking into the roda in a hoody, baggy cargoes and flipflops...actually seen a grandmaster do it.....

I think either of these terms describe such diverse forms of things with so much overlap....  but the point is really that a new student will ask this question, and even after 20 years (in Goodboy's case, for me about 12 or so) there is no simple answer/no answer that is going to satisfy everyone.....

Is this regional or Angola?:  youtube.com/watch?v=Ejny1LqcpEE&feature=related

Why do you think so?

My vote would be Angola.  The Jingas, the Chamadas and their curriculum is why I think so...  Although I see more "movements" than "principles" I believe they are playing Angola

 As I have no face to loose if I'm wrong and I quiet want to know the answer (if there is one) I'm going to take a stab at it . Theres some incongruent stuff in there, ones wearing abada and a corda(and a pocket watch on his belt??) and their movements are quiet rigid. However I reckon its Angola, essentially because of the playfulness. Also the toque, the roda being seated and just something about the way they move says they are angolians (I think angolians deliberately trying to move differently but still angolians). What are they doing? Is it a story?, all but one kick is played as if they're stiff old old men.

I'd say its the game of Angola not being done by Angola Mestres, although I've seen games like this in Angola School rodas too. Not really my cup of tea personally, to much dramatization without much interaction. I was somewhat surprised the group was from so close to Salvador as event shirts that tacky are often more seen in the interior states of Brazil :)

For people who have responded to this question and the original post with references to style, fasion, clothing and all that jazz....

Are you serious?

 Do you really think that Capoeira is about what you wear?

There is a difference between dressing for the occasion and wearing a costume.  I can not see the logic in people saying a cord or untucked shirt or whatever somehow disqualifies a game or group or person from being an Angoleiro.  Its insane.  A cord is no less appropriate for Capoeira Angola than a yellow and black soccer fan colors uniform or a white suit.  Clothing all has symbolic meanings, unity or rank etc.  these change with the environment.  None of these things make you an Angoleiro and none of them disqualify what you are doing from being Capoeira Angola.  Its just clothes!

As far as what I see in that video, I don't know enough about regional to say if it is regional or not, I'm thinking not.   Its kinda like asking if this apple is a fruit or a fuji apple.  Does it really have to be one and not the other?

ta brincando... claro que nao e a roupa ou os sapatos. A pergunta que ele pede é uma chamada, nao? A pergunta e muito aberta e deixa muito a interpretacao.

Exactly my thought...

We all have our definitions based on bias and filters, I personally think Regional as we know from Bimba is an extension of the capoeira played before his father's father...to me the difference people allude to are very superficial as you can see within this here string. Even if you had a gun to my head, in regards to this particular video I will say it is none, just capoeira been played. Now if you are saying based on a particular slant or characteristic then it could fall either ways; can't one argue "jogo de manginga"? there are very particular types of games that blur so called "styles"

For a newbie in the art, it (may) is very difficult to understand or see similarities, sometimes even people who have been training long see differences, yes they are there but again whose interpretation???

to me the video SCREAMS "angola" played by non angoleiros. and i agree with manhoso, the shoes talk a joke.

If it is "all just Capoeira" then why Call your Capoeira "Angola" or "Regional" or Contemporary"???  Why do Angoleiros even use the term Capoeira de Angola???  Some say that we should look at what the "styles" have in common rather than what the differences are but it is the "differences" that separated one from the other.  The fact that an Apple and an Orange are both fruit does not mean that they are the same thing only differing by name...  The mineral content are different and the consistency is different.  Somewhere in the Capoeira, there is a difference.  Why some of you deny this is baffling to me.  Maybe the only difference is the depth of knowledge.  If it is true that Mestre Bimba focused on the fighting aspect of the Capoeira when teaching his students then Mestre Bimbas students would be limited to what he taught and not what he knew...

I know I am young both in the artform and even in age lol but I will say the one thing I learned from my own culture is the traditional way of seeing things. In that vein, I see your example and I will add something interesting to it. Women and Men are different anatomically(sp) right? as you may know internally we are very similar down to the content of molecules. I don't walk around saying we are similar because of this content, but it is true, we both have similar hormones it is just that some are more than others based on function. Does this difference mean a difference? functionally perhaps, overall imo no!!  In my culture, traditionally we do not tend to compare say women and men, we are simply unique; of course other issues have come to change that dynamic.

A banana and an apple are two different fruits as you say, but the contents are only degrees in difference as each fruit serves its own function. Like I was told by my brother here, it is humans that see the difference, the tree that produces does not care; for it has served its function.  So while I agree with you there is a difference, there is also no difference. just as if you see similarities, there is also nothing similar!! If you see this as a contradiction then you now understand who presides it, labels can go only so far

 Check it out bro.  You are your mother's child yes?  But you aren't her, but you have her DNA and many of her features.  When you were young especially what was hers was yours and whatever you did she took responsiblity for.  And when a man is grown it is often that he would feel and think, with great love and gratitude what is mine is my mothers, and I would take responsibility for her.  Well depends on the family.

So what of Capoeira Angola and its children?  Can we look at that and say, its NOT angola and its not identifiable as Angola.  Will we exclude eachother from rodas and create a great distance?  When we know that this Angola is where it comes from....And if we have old men, mestre's playing a game and calling it Capoeira Angola then I think it is, even if its different from what others might know or think, because to me Capoeira Angola is inclusive and not exclusive.  I guess its a bit of a glass half-full vs. half-empty perspective.

I don't know what is needed to define regional.  And I don't know why people not interested in learning or practicing something need to define it.  I don't know why people want to just say its Capoeira and to have and teach and play and spread this Capoeira which they would say is not Angola.  What they have against their own roots really baffles me.  When and where and why was it decided that there would be this other Capoeira that is not called Capoeira Angola is beyond me, and so is the why and even if it exists, right....I just know the Capoeira Angola I learn and have always learned and wanted to learn and my master is proud of is heritage as an Angoleiro...and that is good enough for me.

I guess I am at this point that I don't care what else is out there, which wasn't true in the past.  I know what I've been taught and teach and work to teach and if people don't want or like that and want to differentiate and do something else...good for them.  I play Capoeira, which is Capoeira Angola.  Other people say they play this just Capoeira which is not Capoeira Angola and I think they must be confused, but its not my place to set it right, they can think however they like about the issue.  If they want to play Capoeira Angola, at any time or point, then I am game.  And when that has been established I think its pretty clear to the Angoleiros what is Angola and where it comes from and who the masters are etc.  aint it?  mabye not and that would suck.

I have great respect for Regional but I don't know enough about it to define what is or is not Regional, therefore I can not compare or contrast it directly with the Capoeira Angola from which it comes.

Eu sei que você está brincando.  mas os outros não.  Eles não estavam brincando e não compreender o seu humor. Muitos novos estão neste site. Muitos pensam muito sobre a moda de roupas e outras coisas artificiais.  por elas falo claro. 

é o que é

Certeza- Vou responder para a chamada :)

Chi- The toque is angola.. three berimbaus, atabaque, reco reco? i see a chamada.. or an attempt at one.. and two individuals navigating themselves thru some sort of a game.  Your broad question "is this angola" the broad answer is yes.

Moreso...it is NOT Regional/Regional de Bimba/Capoeira Regional which I would primarily define by the toque, and by the bateria of one berimbau, two pandieros.  An EXCELLENT example of Modern Regional de Bimba is seen below:

http://youtu.be/dfdEb-Lfw7I

This is simple, right?

Then theres a segment of groups whom seem to be "inbetween" that really seem to bother some people.  These are the Contemporana/Capoeira Actual/ Capoeira moderna groups.   Angolieros with cordaos playing better "regional"? Miudinho practitioners playing better angola? What the hell is going on man?  Why cant we have clear defined borders? Whats this Movimento Novo Capoeira stuff too?  Is Itapua an angoliero? Is Poncaninho a regionalista?

Damnit Goodboy, its all just too complicado for me.

LOl Manhoso...for sure in the days of Mestre Bimba it was quite simplisitic; because it was just his vision of capoeira and that which was before him. Today it is different, but moreso that we are still trying to shoehorn people into categories that obviously not everyone can fit. I understand the sarcasm for real...but it begs the question...is this a cultural thing to label and shoe horn EVERYTHING? And at what cost?

Better Yet CapoeiraGoodBoy...where r u going with this?

The game of regional is one game that was played in M. Bimba's academy.  Manhoso is right.  That is not regional.

1) The orchestra is wrong

2) The toque

3) The game of regional would probably contain some elements of M. Bimba's sequence in it.

I don't know where he is going with it, but if he's making the point that it is ridiculous to try to shoe horn everything, he's doing a good job.

The cordao?

Well, when I started with Mestre Joao Grande in 1992 we used the word "regional" to refer to anything that was not capoeira angola.  Of course that was technically wrong, but sometimes I still fall into the habit of calling other non capoeira angola "regional".    So, thank you Manhoso for the added level of detail in helping to figure out what type of capoeira was being played in the video.

As for using dress to determine what type of capoeira is being played this is not a bad place to start.  For the most part, non angola capoeiras will play without shoes or shirt and will often wear cords.  However, this analysis holds up for about 5 minutes.  Mestres Joao Pequeno and Moraes, two students from Mestre Pastinha, both used cordaos at their academies. Mestre Paulos dos Anjos would often play barefoot and Mestre No uses cordaoes and plays barefoot.  So, I wasn't really asking about how different capoeiras dress...

Especially in Bahia the line is blurred.   The traditional regional, as played by Bimba's son in Forte San Antonio, has the same components I understand capoeira angola to have :Sensitivity, dance, communication, a non reliance on physicality.  And one also sees "regional" players like Mestre King Kong in the "Angola" street roda of Mestre Lua Rata playing his game.  Not mimicking capoeira angola, but really playing his game and adding on to the roda.

So, I am asking the question to understand what are the real differences between angola and "regional"(or non angola).  Not the differences on the surface(clothes, bateria set up, level of combativeness, or ect.) but the underlying differences.  Someone said earlier that there are reasons for the differences in the names for the capoeira we each play, what are these reasons?

To me this looks like a meeting of a capoeira contemporânea group or groups. To get more "credibility"/attention/whatever, they have invited two old capoeira mestres. (That sounded a bit negative, I didn't really mean in that way).

I think this is an interesting video because, these two mestres are examples of traditional capoeira that originates not from the "usual suspects" of Mestre Pastinha, Mestre Waldemar and Mestre Bimba, but from other contemporaries of that era. Often when people speak of capoeira angola they have the style/tradition of Mestre Pastinha in mind, and what this has developed into through Mestres João Grande (and Moraes) and João Pequeno.

But Mestre Felipe's lineage goes back to Mestre Cobrinha Verde and Mestre Popó.. Is what he does not capoeira angola?  Here is another glimpse of his game, also with him as a visitor in a contemporânea roda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmysNUGckx0 and another clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-Iceu3aTjY . Still not angola? There's a video of an interview with M. Felipe on abeiramar.tv, where he talks about his roots and capoeira background, if someone is interested.

Because capoeira is so intricate and varied, to define what is what in capoeira is near impossible. There are some similarities that you will often find in angola groups and not in regional groups and vice versa. But there will always be exceptions (someone mentioned Itãpua Beiramar and M. Poncianinho). Maybe one could make a list of 50 important traits and properties of angola and regional which then could be crossed off when observed and this would define what style it is. But that's as insane as it sounds!

If you make a scale with angola in one end and regional in the other, the extremes would be easy to classify, but what about the grey areas in the middle?

I think there are two important things to consider when talking about the difference between angola and regional. 1) Would the person or group consider himself/itself to be an angoleiro/angola group? 2) What is the person's/groups lineage?

(Actually, when I come to think of it, the criterias for who should be recognized as indigenous people in my country is something like this. A) Do you consider yourself part of the indigenous people and B) Was your grandmother part of the indigenous people. Or something like that).

As Shiffd talked about, there are big differences between angola groups. Both in appearances, in techniques, in emphasis on different part of tradition, etc etc. In this clip of M. Paulo dos Anjos he doesn't once put his hands on the ground. Was he not an angoleiro? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj7wNkxjwQ4


The list below is from Floyd Merrel's book Capoeira and candomblé. It's not neccessarily my opinion, but something to debate.

Comparison of and contrast between capoeira angola and capoeira regional

The need to shoehorn and isolate is a modern thing.. one could say that it is used as a vehicle to control ones students, nao?

I believe this is why Movimento Novo is thriving now in Rio.. no group affiliation, no logos allowed.. just capoeira in the spirit of what it once was.  Look at the Roda de Caxias as well for an example of this..

So.. back to the initial question..

I can somewhat speak on my lineage.. One huge difference with miudinho and contemporary angola is that contact is frowned upon in a miudinho game.. the philosophy is that you should be pushing the limits of your body to interact and play along with your parceiro.. and hitting "breaks" the game.  But then again.. depending on ones lineage.. this rule could apply to certain angola groups as well right?

Outside of that, we play to Sao Bento Grande de Angola.. or an "open game" this means.. could be a fight, could be expressive, could be playful, could be contact.. The games vary according to personality, philosophy, mood and capability... or not..

 My thoughts were going in the same direction in relation to why the styles have different names. I was wondering how much they are driven by the groups that have lineages attached to that style? A professora I used to know displayed open scorn about anyone who lacked a lineage, she called them a name I can't remember which she said meant children without parents, ie a bastard. She said with no roots they would only be laughed at at capoeira events as they wouldn't ever be capoeiristas however hard they trained. So there is, it appears an element of style names acting as a `brand name'.

An I agree with goodboy about stereotypes falling down in 5 minutes. If I went topless into a roda I think it may traumatise some people forever!  

Lines can be "blurred", this is true.  I believe it to be like a "donut" and a "donut hole"...  They both contain the same thing but one has much more of it.  If I count to 10 and you count to 100 or 1000, we are both using the number system by you would have more numbers to play with then I do.

The subtilties that are missing from "non angola groups" are, the chamadas and the science behind them, and Corpo Fechada and the science behind it.  There is also, O Pulo do Gato...  It is unfortunate that there are many Angoleiros who also have no clue as to what these things truly are beyond their philosophical meanings.

Cubano use to say to me that "If you don't understand the principles behind the movements, you are only 'playing' Capoeira" and that "Capoeira is much more than just a game".  For example, we all know rolé but do we all know what "principles" are contained within that movement?  We all know Meia-Lua but what is the Multiple Applications that are hidden within the Meia-Lua de Frente?

Mestre Joao Grande once told me that "doing Capoeira de Angola is more than just doing aú and playing with your hands on the ground..."  He continued by saying that "Capoeira de Angola has Science!!!"  What is this "Science" that we sing about in our songs?  Again, I am not talking about the philosophical meaning...  This comment was made because a Regionalista (non-angoleiro) told him that in their academy they play both Regional and Angola.  Mestre Joao Grande said to them that "Doing Regional and Angola is like mixing water and gasoline..."  If there were no difference then why would Mestre Joao Grande make such a statement?  Is he senile???  Does he have an ax to grind???

By the way, PGCA Capoeira is also me.  I have been having trouble with this account so I used the other one...

it is complicated...

Historically there was only a "form", this form was played in Brazil with different and a myriad of emphasis...more importantly it was tied to ethnicities and other functions lost in moments. Each epoch in Brazil shifted culture both phsyically and psychologically...ultimately creating a decline of this form; now many people have their own level of understanding here...I choose to look at it from an energetic POV. The spirit of the form we call capoeira is survivalist in nature of course amongst other things...to mean it cannot simply die, but become something else...enter Regional! Regional I believe is a direct response the spirit adopted to survive. And I think people misunderstand the Brazilian culture from the perspective of the milieu of the 20s-30s. The fact is that Brazil a Republic was very militarized etc, etc meaning regiment, mechanization was a function of the elite at least and that trickled down the "hierarchy". Mestre Bimba was not stupid and had to use this to emphasize his own vision. This is not to say, capoeira angola became unified because of this...it didn't however Regional served its purpose, Bimba codified his capoeira. Regional is an extension or if one wishes a modification of what existed; I personally believe what really came out of this was more emphasis on lines and technique...above all Regional still was/is has a cooperative interplay. Rituals such as chamadas known in the past were removed, to favor other aspects like combat etc, but energy of the rituals was not lost because he included the bystanders energia eg hand clapping. Regional can be looked akin to the effect of cornering an animal...

Capoeira Angola is a concept, it is culture, Regional (de bimba) is an aspect of this culture...subculture or counter depends on what part of the fence some will argue its a culture, but then I am talking capoiera angola before Bimba. Capoeira angola is philosophy, it also institution and therefore methodology and so politics, it is also lineage, it is also grupo, it is also toque...it is also individual...ALL these are faculty of the mind; how can one actually juxta-position Angola and Regional?

Now if you want to quantify aspects for example, like methodology; then one has to present methods for each concepts...and not only provide differences but similarities, imho!

For example, most people on here don't buy into the spiritual aspects...no fault of theirs we are in a western(ized) culture afterall...so then we can deal with the physical for an instance...e.g the bateria in most capoeira angola schools have a codfied setup; 3 berimbaus, two pandeiros, an agogô, reco-reco, and atabaque their position vary, but this instruments each have their respective function(s) physically and non. What is interesting to me is these instrument also can represent the variety of people and their own ideas...the reco-reco, raspy...the agogô clunky, the berimbau one plays inverted against another two differing spectrum...then the dundun monotonous and yet deep...together though it is creative force...this is turn is how the roda is maintained. This is absolutely different from the Regional setup, but I have inputed what was removed was added another way...in the end ALL ROADS CAN INDEED LEAD TO ILE-IFE; too many people get hung up on the surface, this is not bad; people are needed there...but it should be clear that is your capoiera!!

Blessings PGCA Brother Jason,

I argued with a phD holder in Astronomy, he believed the earth followed a perfect eliiptical orbit around the earth, so you can predict a point in space the earth will follow while spinning on its axis. That "science" works well dependent on the "science" that created it. It is simple not true, because the earth also wobbles on its axis...the path is not perfect, but it is true you can predict its next position...why? that sucker is huge!! The "science" serves its purpose, its serves its function...but its his science and there are many things on the face of this earth that science says it knows, but I will tell you this...if you went to the beach and pack some sand in your hand, then let it go...the sand in you hand is just what we know, the sand you let go is what we think we know...the sand in the beach is what is waiting to be known. The great Mestre is NOT senile nor does he have an axe to grind...but he only knows his capoeira and that alone is good enough...try to quantify esoteric knowledge is difficult...Bruce Lee tried it but got alsck for it and decided to turn what he knew into an exoteric aspect and the West ate it; forgeting the politics it created ALL ROADS LEAD TO ILE-IFE!!

Coming from the other side, I would say that Regional is very specific to M. Bimba and his teaching methods.  I might even find it more accurate to call everything that is not Regional "Angola", although I would call that which came from the lineage of M. Bimba, but does not rigidly adhere to M. Bimba's teaching Methods "Contemporary Capoeira Regional".

Please allow me to play the devils advocate a little and stir the pot.

I think it was in Floyd Merrel's book (maybe it was another book) where he was talking about going to Mercado Modelo and seeing "fake capoeira".  Then he said that an angola mestre came and sat beside him and he was embarrassed to be caught watching capoeira that wasn't "real capoeira".  He said that the mestre simply sat and watched with him for a while.  I immediately saw something wrong with this point of view.  Here we have an academy angoleiro watching people play capoeira who probably learned in the street and he's saying that their capoeira isn't real.  So how is his capoeira MORE traditional than people that learned in the traditional way?  Of course, they were doing capoeira for show, but that's besides the point.  I recently talked to a Professore who is the same age as me (early 30's).  He said that when he was a kid learning at Mercado Modelo, they didn't have classes.  They simply watched the games and copied what they saw.  Is this not the TRADITIONAL way to learn capoeira?

So let's look at what Mestre Bimba did, he took capoeira out of the street and opened the first capoeira academy.  He was the first to develop a methodology for teaching many students.  I've heard more than one mestre say that Mestre Bimba was the first capoeira teacher (I don't think that they meant that capoeira was never taught before, but that he was the first to develop a method of teaching many students).  Other people copied Mestre Bimba's lead and started to train students in an academy and having many students.  So when academy angoleiros say that what they are doing is MORE traditional than capoeira regional, it doesn't make sense to me.  How can that be?  Are you not following M. Bimba's lead by learning in an academy...some may also use sequences to train, wear uniforms, have a ranking system, have a formal organization to the orchestra in their school (for M. Bimba it was 1 berimbau and 2 pandeiors, for other Mestres it's other organizations of instruments).  My point is, these people are doing essentially the same thing that M. Bimba did, so how can what they do be MORE traditional?  Didn't M. Bimba do it first.  Aren't they copying him?  Wouldn't that make what M. Bimba did MORE traditional?  I think that is why I've heard people call academy angola "Contemporary Capoeira Angola".  I know GoodBoy doesn't like the term, but it is out there none the less.  Maybe it's even impossible for an academy angoleiro to be MORE traditional than M. Bimba's regional, since he started the idea of the academy.  Now where did M. Bimba learn capoeira?  He learned from the capoeiristas before him, so the capoeira that he knew wasn't academy capoeira.  Just like other teachers at the time who started academies after him.  It comes from the same place.  Isn't it all just capoeira.

Maybe part of the issue might be that some people didn't like the fact that M. Bimba was teaching white people...and of course there would be a reaction to that.  Am I off base here?

Once I read that some Mestres don't get along and that because of this, they will intentionally disagree with the other Mestres just to say something different from what that mestre said.  One Mestre says capoeira came from X...and whether it's true or not, another mestre will say no, capoeira came from Y.  This isn't because capoeira didn't come from X, but because the other mestre doesn't want to agree with the first.  And it is the students who end up being confused and lose out.  So here we are looking for the hidden differences between angola and regional.

BTW, here we are talking about regional, but what about M. Bimba's game of banguela?  Does anyone care to comment on that?

Now that the pot has been appropriately stirred, go at it.

I like the video.  Good post.  I never thought of the outlying communities meeting and exchanging ideas in Slavador, but I like the idea.

BTW, my personal views are that M. Bimba and M. Pastinha (and other mestres) did very much the same thing.  They took capoeira (the capoeira that was around before the advent of the academy) off of the street and into the academy.  They tried to make it more acceptable (or maybe respectable) to other people.  It is all the same.  One is not any more traditional than the other.  Many of the differences that people talk about are stylistic or aesthetic differences.  Teachers teach what they are good at.  Also, capoeiristas tend to let out some of their own personality and style when they play capoeira (one of the cool things about capoeira), as lots of students imitate this, it makes somewhat of a "style" within the group.  That doesn't mean that it's not all capoeira.

The labels are maybe a bit like currency, with a function.  Like a big fat brick of gold, weight.  So cumbersome if its carried around.  If I had a big bar of gold I'd keep it at home safe and sound, when I move about I would be light on my feet with just a few dollars or change.  Nothing I will get upset over losing.  Perhaps the meanings and identity of these labels are best kept at home, at the academy or the roda, or locked away within the mind and recess of the community.  The real meanings of all these things are not really shared that openly I think, I think the real nitty gritty of each group is held very close to their heart.  So its hard to know or compare because we can't see all of either or any.  We just see the tip of the iceburg of who they are floating on the surface.  Personally I am at a stage now that I don't need to know anything they aren't openly sharing.

Perhaps there is a specific culture of people, Angoleiros, from which this is all coming.  For them its very clear what it is that they have to offer and what it is that they are.  For those outside, including myself and anyone approaching the art to learn it, its not easily understood.  Tools are needed...I live in Japan, they need Japanese/English an airplane for their part if they want to reach me.  Or i need to learn Portuguese and study them, go to Brazil etc..  One way or the other there is a gap.  We are really talking in English here and so we can identify culturally why you and I had/have trouble learning about this/these arts.  Why we have questions about Capoeira Angola and Capoeira Regional that are hard to answer.  Portuguese is a 2nd language, Brazilian culture foreign to us (atleast in the beginning) history and politics things we study academically later in life, not things our parents and childhood give us an innate prespective on.  So its not easy for them to teach us.

So that's why all these schools.  International academies and that.  Its the way it has to be.  All these labels, these heavy bricks of gold that are so combersome to carry around and difficult to exchange.  There is value to them, but its not apparent, only the inconvenience of the thing, its inherent weight to we immediately recognize.  Even within Brazil, the Brazilians are mostly not Angoleiros.  Very few are.  That is the issue, the Angoleiros have to pass a screen of misunderstanding even to reach Brazilians, then those Brazlians go out to other countries to teach what they know.  So in Brazil they see most readily the inconvenience of these labels, of these schools and groups.  The politics.

But how can a Mestre travel about Brazil or the world if we do not pay them, have schools to teach in, students he can recognize and curriculum of some kind to follow in his absence?  We need/needed all these things because we the students, you and I, want to learn what they have to teach, and money and so forth, infrastructure is necessary.  Some of it is physical, some of it is intellectual.  A concept of the art, without it how can we be their student?  We need an idea constructed within our cultural framework to even approach them and their art.

So to answer your question, going out on a limb- I belive that Capoeira Angola is primarily focused around teaching the culture and the science within it simultaneously.  Practioners, students, enthusiasts etc. are encouraged and often expected to adapt and learn the cultural framework, to enter and join the community, to be an Angoleiro.  Capoeira Regional is delivering a sport and technology to people.  If we restrict it to Mestre Bimba then Regional can be rather specific.  If we think of it in the more generic usage, or as anything that isn't Angola, then perhaps it is what has been given by the Angoleiros, without any commitment to learn their culture or identify with them.  And maybe that is it.  Angoleiros adapt and identify directly with teh culture that derived the art and all that it spawned.  Regardless the mainfestation, the subcultural variations of Angola (subculture within subculture) there is a common identity.  Angoleiros see themselves together as a culture/type of person, they also recognize divisions within Angola, seperate groups within the larger group but they share the common sense of being Angoleiros, almost like an ethnicity.  And they share it with their students.  People who do not call themselves Angoleiros often do not share this culture.  They don't call themselves Angoleiros.

So then we get peopel who don't call themselves Angoleiros but who play 'Angola' or say that they do, or that they teach it.  They have defined the Angoleiros as themselves, to simply learning a thing unto itself without the cultural trappings.  They are again trying to remove the Angoleiros from his Capoeira, this time more specifically they want the Angola game, they want to lay claim to it and remove again the Angoleiro.  They have this idea that they have the 'high game' or the 'jogo rapido' or the jogo alto..that the Angoleiros still has the jogo embaixo etc...So they go to claim it and now we get some different names of Capoeira 'styles'...but its not about that. 

I'm really going out on a limb here but...I've not really heard of Capoeria Reigonal players having another name for themselves, like 'regionalistas' 'contemporanistas' or 'modernistas' or whatever.  But Angoleiros are Angoleiros, and this is a point they make in song and practice all over the world from as early as anyone can remember.  So perhaps that is the difference, how we identify with the art culturally.

I used the term expression, but now I am not sure about that either. Although it lasted more than 5mins lol, seriously though expression of the art is culturally different I definitely can see that

Also Espanthalho1 I do agree with your point about the academy making the Capoeira thought by say Mestre Pastinha arguably contemporary but that argument will fly out if you analyzed what it is you are saying. Judaism is a very old tradition, never thought in schools per se. The minute the religion started to gain grounds in the Americas to keep it simple; would you put it within the same chronology(sp?) an say western orthodoxy (arm of Christianity), just because it started to be taught in academies? The academy I don't think made the subject equal in terms of age, besides methodology. Bimba's capoeira started with him, his contemporaries where still doing the older form of what he changed, hope I am making sense

As far as styles go aet has mentioned capoeira who's lineage is not from mestre pastinha or bimba, I've been chatting recently with a friend about bahian capoeira, he plays and teaches `street capoeira' from bahia. An says That is the original capoeira with an un-broken line its not transported to other countries as much as there arent acadamies and wealth attached to it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDFhsgQTuvY . Where does this fall in what Shiffd mentioned with angola being the source of all other styles? An what would you call it?

An Shiffd. I am a contemporay player. I identify myself as a capoeirista, an by that essentially I mean with the energy and space created by the ritual, (an in whatever form angola or contemporary it is a ritual from my experience of other rituals christian and, pagan  and old chrisitian ones that mix the two) This identity come from the times when I am in tune enough with the roda to feel its existance in liminal space, no time, no space, as though all rodas co-exist in the same space, not as a memory or ancestors one must respect an be afraid of but as a viseral presence. There is no Time in the right sort of roda an all present are capoeiristas from when the floor that vibrated to the drum was earth rather than sports hall paraquet flooring. I may be alone in this understanding I think I probably am, but , to me, it is Not just the movements.

Ah, but M. Bimba WAS doing what his teacher taught him...so it really IS the same, no?

BTW, this is a perfect example of what I am getting at.  Is there a difference?  You insist that there is, but really???  is there???  Who told you that there was a difference???  what was their motivation???  let's start there.

Expression of physical power.

PGCABrotherjason: You seem to be arguing that science is an object something that hides and the reveals itself. From my understanding science is a process by which you form a hypothesis and then prove or disprove it. It is a tool to measure the validity of things to your best possible ability. It never reveals objective `truth's' its just helps you to ascertain the most likely answer. You sound as if you are talking about faith.

This exists everywhere my friend.  Some are just a little more graceful than others.

Espanlanto1, did an angoleiro fuck your girlfriend? Because you seem to often go out of your way to prove that angoleiros are not as authentic as they claim.

However, this is not a conversation about how non-traditional capoeira angola actually is.  I tend to agree that Bimba, Pastinha, and all of the old Bahiano mestres did pretty much the same thing, and drew from pretty much the same well, regardless of wether they taught on the beach in their backyard, or in an academy.  Thus my question:  What is the true difference between non angola capoeira and capoeira angola?  Following this conversation, and based on what I've seen in Bahia, I have started to think that there is not much difference between Bimba's Regional(traditional regional) and Capoeira Angola.

I also have to say that the "science" or understanding of capoeira, what someone called the difference between playing and doing capoeira, is not unique to capoeira angola.  Mestres of every style have a concept of what they are doing.  An understanding of their goals within the game.  Some have more developed understanding, but again, having "science" in the game is not unique to capoeira angola.

So, Espanlanto1, please let go of your pain.  I need answers.

Nice video and good point.

 No-one need to have shagged anyone else for anyone to get pissed. I didn't believe the steroetype of angolians being arrogant and aloof but have come damn close to it since, oh, about a month ago, when Brother Jason started posting abut how unworthy contemporary players needed to come and drink at the fountain of angolerian knowledge, the True source of capoeira. Shiffd has (somewhat surprised me considering his indepth knowledge of capoeira)by implying non angolians are effectively uneducated louts with no understanding nor desire to understand the culture from which capoeira sprang or mere sportsmen at best. I'm glad I know some angolians in the flesh who return the respect I show them or I'd have started to definatly consider there is no smoke without fire as far as the stereotype goes... 

PGCA Brother Jason says:

@ PGCA Brother Jason,

This is the problem here; we (in general) don't have a clear agreement on the word "Science", so lets use principles instead. Afterall western Europeans say they "created" modern science and I agree (more so that systems of concepts became unified) because our own idea (meaning an African stand point) of science was traditionally not divorced from the immaterial....

A thing simply is in existence, it is nameless, it just is...how you bring them forth to explain, observe categorize etc, etc is dependent on certain principles that follow a natural order/law. The issue here is that of the human, our respective filters, meaning individuation and mere presence ALWAYS gets in the way. Science "attempts" to leave things either in the realm of black and white and to move forward there is no room for gray; this is part of its fundamentals of the modern position. However the human who created this concepts is "flawed" in the sense that the gray is part of the spectrum, how can they simply shove this aspects under the proverbial rug? So you are right in saying the science does not "say" anything, but because we have a diverse approach of the subject matter many will not buy into our idea of "science", so to iterate...the science can be faulty, because it is part of the human faculty and that in itself is subject to failure...

@ Espantalho1,

Fundamentally the three berimbaus in a full bateria are the same...hey three berimbaus doh right...lol however are they? I think the topic is beautiful in the sense we are saying similar things but from different part of iterations. To me, fundamentally Regional de Bimba in specific (the subject matter) and Capoeira angola (I am hesistant to say before the shift...) are much similar, functionally there are absolutely not. I am answering because we are getting to a point of attempting a quantification. I do disagree with your point of saying what Bimba taught was no different than what was already in existence and so therefore the idea that angoleiros claim to be more traditional is BS...again if we are quantifying a chronology, everything stopped at Bimba; now if you say he was drawing from the same well we can agree 100%...but he CREATED a vision manifested in a different ideology, methodology and hence his students became year 1, the next level on the Regional chart and better or worse became estranged from what was Bimbas father's capoeira. Your position I often stated is a new thing with "newer" Americanized or American capoerista who i believe is reacting to what a very few so called Angoleiros have created. An example we have shared mutually was folks in my country NOT even knowing what their traditionally religion was/is or even what it was about...because someone at some point removed the Kon ga (well). Now this is not to say, an indigenous religion is better than a foreign one...however a foreign one if not expressed with its own inherent agenda is potentially very destructive to the indigenes...and if all have an agenda, then a foreign one ultimately is not in alignment with the culture already there. This point cannot be refuted the world over...but then again I do know better lol

CapoeiraGoodBoy says:

@ CapoeiraGoodBoy,

I think you have switched the parameters we were working with..."non angola capoeira" is what exactly? You started this string, perhaps you should give us a concise idea of what you consider capoeira angola? (you stated what you thought in the past...or perhaps it is something you are still attempting to put together) we know what we consider Regional here at least in this thread...and also does your idea of capoeira angola include the modern capoeira of the senzalas? do you consider CDO to be capoeira angola? if you do or not can you state it...this can narrow our agreements or disagreements.

I have shared this view with others, I think the rise of the academy created so many factions, especially in a capitalistic society...compounded by other institutions that cater to only a particular segment of the populace. In Nigeria, at least when I was growing in the suburbs (we call village lol) many factions of orisha adherents or houses will come out and while it was not a stroll in the park...it was clear the houses where just functions...the main body was the orisha worhipped...of course this is very complicated out here, I understanf there is a need to belong; human quality! but there is also a need to be an individual and this things are sometimes antagonistic even in the same individual. I love capoeira, I am lucky I grew up with a dfference set of tools...some people need to belong, some need not be, some ppl are these, some ppl are that. I know who presides over the domain of this artform; I give reverence intellectualizing can only take one so far...but worse to me is forcing people into a box...alas we all do it one way or the other. The academy is whole sale capoeira these days (soem things are always left off the table), there are very good masters...there are even worse, if one is not centered properly... it is difficult to navigate oneself out for fear of this or fear of that...I know it can be unforgiving, sometimes our personalities betray us, but that is each of our lessons to contend with I guess. Ultimately and fundamentally there are no big gargantuan differences...I persoanlly think they really should not be juxta positioned based on your initial question that is; I say know the rules of a house, understand the fundamentals of the living art...some of us have opened up to other aspects that is difficult for others; it matters not if you understand this...respect other folks approach to capoeira. Somethings can be quantified, some things cannot understand the difference, is the difference...

Anywayz thanks Brother Chi, as usual you leave folks reflecting...this is your ase...ese o!!

Science simply translated from the Latin means "Knowledge"...  When I use the word Science, I am referring to the Mathematical Principles that are contained within the art of Capoeira.  I am referring to the geometry of the human body as it is One with the geometry of the Capoeira.  Science is knowledge attained through study and practice.  It "reveals itself" meaning that the more we study and what we study will unlock understanding and wisdom.  Faith is nothing without work!  And our Capoeira is only as good as our understanding of the principles contained in the art...

To keep it simple, Ejodudu, I am going by people's self definitions.  What they say they are I take at face value.  If a group says they they are a capoeira angola group I believe them.  If they say they are not capoeira angola, then I take it that they are non capoeira angola practicioners.

Agreed...however "revelations" gets missed all the time...my grandfather will say, nothing really new in the universe...except the universe, I will be darned if I knew what he meant...but as each moment passes I realize that things people called miracles I thought was simply a lack of understand of the underlying scientific principles...now I have come to the realization, it is either one believes there are miracles EVERYthing is or NONEthing is. Science place is not to explain EVERYthing, but that is the culture of a particular people or individuals. Invariably revelations get missed all the time as oppose to...well lets leave that alone, just wanted to point that out...lol

Lennon says:

@ lennon,

I am not defending the positions of both Shiffd and Brother Jason...but I have studied several dynamics here and outside; while it is complex, I tell Espantalho1 that we tend to always leave the pink elephant in the corner. You are a woman, you have hair, you have style, you have grace...you have a personality none of these things singularly define you...however collectively they do, or least come close. Many people look at capoeira angola singularly and make a broad generalization even when not exclusively training or importantly understanding its idealogy. Well the truth can also be said of other iterations of the mother...however the point above...I think a shift in paradigm happened long time ago and it created a rift; I am digressing here saying Capoeira angola the collective is of the same manifestation as other iterations is just plain irreconcilable. I understand when something you value is downplayed...one becomes reactionary, but this new thing that "capoeira angola is not so traditional" is people trying to add heritage into the pool of history without paying dues. I believe in degrees, I love what I see with the younger kids moving like they have no backbone...but that is only an aspect of capoeira....What this gentlemen are saying is the keepers of the art once where Africans (continental), their descendants (whatever that means in Brazil in yersteryears let say Africans in the diaspora) and now every other ethnic group...the shift now is people saying the knowledge they posses collectively is in the same vein, as the beginning some even argue more than...Look Mestre dingdong is a great capoeirsta...he has been doign this for 30 yrs, he calls his group modern...and if Mestre Bimba where alive today, this two men will be mestres right?...they have value...but Mestre created his vision of capoeira he is "0" on the chart...mestre dingdong says mestre is old and decrepit and has equal or no value today...this is the essence of what I am seeing, probably wrong, but I know it comes close... That is why capoeira angola is capoeira angola, ( the philosophy) ..."external" influences do not have that much currency; yes it changes...everything does, but collective new agism will not work, because I believe it removes an important principle of respect I will not liek to get into here...hence there is a modern iteration to allow this ideologies flourish. I hope it is clear(er)? function and form are not usually interchangeable...

CapoeiraGoodBoy says:

it seems that this will invalidate the thread; we can all state our idea of capoeira but then what of it? lol this thin no simple at all...

Goody-

I tend to agree with you.. if we go and look at the classic videos of 1950 CECA Pastinha and 1954 Bimba presentation.. both games are "raw" and similar in nature, or at least to me it is.

It would be nice to be able to see some vids of Bimbas group in the 60's and how things developed(I couldnt find any) Compared to the classic 1968 video of M.Joao Grande and M.Joao Pequeno playing together..  As noted in another thread by Leopardo.. subtle changes become huge over time.  I think thats what happened.

Now.. could one theorize that subtle changes made in the 70's and 80's are bringing things back to the middle again? sure..  Lets keep in mind that one of our capoeira icons was Besouro who was neither angoleiro nor regional, but who was simply capoeira.

It's cool.  I didn't really like her that much anyway.  Okay I did.  I loved her.  Damn it.  Goodboy, why do you have to bring up such painful memories?

"but he CREATED a vision "

As did others.  Who is to say that one's vision is more valid, more traditional, more xyz than M. Bimba's?  That is where I have an issue.  To me, M. Bimba and M. Pastinha did very much the same thing.  Others also did very much the same thing.

I think one of the subtle changes was the amount of time people spend training.  Where before people played capoeira as a past time, now we have people in angola, regional, and other "styles" training multiple days a week so that when they go to the roda, they can perform at a peak.  This probably wasn't done before the academy and probably was taken to new levels with Grupo Senzala, no?

Maybe it would be helpful to list the characteristic that made up Regional.  I'll start.

1) The academy

2) The sequence of M. Bimba

3) The orchestra of M. Bimba

4) The rhythms of Regional, Banguela, Iuna

5) The Esquenta-banho

6) The graduation ceremony

7) Silk scarves

Anyone from the lineage of M. Bimba have anything to add?

Are there characteristics of Angola (probably too broad of a term since different lineages claim to be angola)?

8) The batizado

9) The admission exam

10) The Cintura Desprezada

11) The specialization course (ambushes)

 I'm sorry that is what you feel I've said.

What I have said is that non-Angoleiros don't identify with the root culture of the art.  I speak English and know much of England's history but I do not identify myself as an Englishmen nor participate in any aspect of their culture (although influences and commonalities abound since my culture also in big part comes from England-but not entirely).  I would say that if you do not participate in the Capoeira Angola community as an Angoleiro but play Capoeira, then you have disassociated yourself, that doesn't make you ignorant.  It most definitely does not speak to your desire's either.  Many people who consider themself outside of the Capoeira Angola community, master's etc. participate and are welcome to participate in Capoeira Angola events and workshops.  In my experience Angoleiros neither exclude non-Angoleiros nor do non-Angoleiros intentionally avoid communication.

As I spoke of earlier, to these familial relationships, I am the one that is mostly ignorant of Capoeira Regional and other manifestations of Capoeira.  I see all the similarities of which CapoeiraGoodboy is talking about.  I agree with him that the science is there, the science which Jason speaks so fondly of has no real name, we call it Angola perhaps, but it could have another name and be the same essential thing.  knowledge, technology, science etc.  ideas passed on, practiced learned etc.  methods of passing teh knowledge on, methods of learning, methods of practicing, sharing and so forth.  To say that the name I ahve is correct, or that because I know the name for it I know and you use another you are wrong, is not my stance.  I doN7t think it's brotherJason's either, but I think he is just drawing emphasis to what Capoeira Angola means for him.  We can't say, as Angoleiros, that it doesn't exist by another name, but we may feel, especially early on in Capoeira studies that it is so.

So perhaps the question is what is the difference in the core science?  In that case I only know little of one of these two things we are comparing.  Seeing however, perhaps very little difference in the core knowledge and even practices, the spirit, then it may be the identity that is different.  That is what I was speaking to.  I would go farther to say, in response to how you have intepreted what I am saying, that it is usually the Angoleiros who know little to nothing of Capoeira Regional.  If the imaginary fence exists between Angola and Regional then it is as likely an Angoleiro is ignorant of what is on the other side, where a Capoeira Regional practitioner may infact be very familiar with Capoeira Angola history, ritual and so forth...countless opportunities for them to study if you look at the way events and encounters are run and so forth.  And since their Capoeira comes from Capoeira Angola, it only makes sense they have knowledge of Capoeira Angola.  The way a man who speaks English, knows for one how to speak with Englishmen....And so it is the Angoleiro, since his art didn't come from Capoeira Regional might not know really anything about Capoeira Regional other than what they have in common.  The way an Englishmen might be able to speak with a New Zealander (well atleast a little bit) but know nothing at all about New Zealand, he might mistake it for a state of the US if he is particularly ignorant.

I would caution though, visiting a few workshops isn't the same as actually studying with a group and earning your place over years of study etc.  And Capoeira Angola and Capoeira Regional both take years to learn and master.  I think its hard for someone to be so knowledgable of both to really give either justice to explain away their differences.  But, going out on a limb, maybe the differences are not so great and it is a matter of identity.

PGCA Brother Jason says:

@ PGCA Brother Jason,

This is the problem here; we (in general) don't have a clear agreement on the word "Science", so lets use principles instead. Afterall western Europeans say they "created" modern science and I agree (more so that systems of concepts became unified) because our own idea (meaning an African stand point) of science was traditionally not divorced from the immaterial....

For me, the term "Science" is interchangeable with "Geometry"...  When I talk about "The" science of the art, I am talking about the geometrical principles.  I am not talking about some European/Western Scientific Method or some foolishness like that...  To say that "Capoeira de Angola tem ciéncia" has nothing to do with some scientific method...  It is saying that inherent in the Capoeira is Science (physical and spiritual)...  "Modern" Science may be a Western thing but Science, itself is as old as the universe.

I think you have me at a disadvantage; I am very sure I agreed to your initial point...you are using the lexicon "science and mathematics" in a very specific and cultural way...others outside would not have gotten it and so I opted for the word principles and "our own idea of science" is actually inclusive...

PGCA Brother Jason says:

These are ALL concepts, a thing simply exist and yes follows a natural order, other beings don't have a science or mathematics; we are not that special because we think, we think better. A compromise here...knowledge wisdom & understanding these are the main principles, me believing science is a faculty of the mind and you believing its faculty of the universe are wholly reconciable; I am inextricably tied to the universe...

I don't know much about chess, although I know it has clear objectives and the strategies are finite...this although is predicated by a good memory and because it is fundamentally based on open strategy any mistake maximizes your possibilities of freedom, while minimizing the options for your opponents...while your point was to elaborate on the "science of the game of chess", it has a flaw maybe in that it relies on the human memory for strategies...

Hmmmn interesting point taken...

so you don't subcribe to the idea of evolution and a revolution? within context...

I think there was evolution, but probably not in the same way that you are thinking about it.

I think capoeira is reflective.  When you play capoeira, a certain amount of your personality comes out.  Maybe even hidden parts of your personality come out.  Parts of your personality that you wouldn't normally show under normal circumstance do to hidden or not so hidden societal or social constraints.  In capoeira we get to play.  So capoeira reflects the player.  Now as those players start to be people outside of this city or that, this country or that, their culture is slightly different or very different and this is probably reflected in capoeira, so this is a natural evolution or consequence of expanding the art.  I think capoeira also reflects the times, the physical location, current political or economical climate, all of these things probably affect capoeira because they affect people.  Capoeira teaches people to be adaptable and capoeira itself is also adaptable.  It changes with the times.  It changes with the flow in a sense.  I think that this would be the natural evolution of capoeira.  This is also why it is important to have the guidance of a mestre.

As Goodboy pointed out, the capoeira in outlying areas is maybe different than in Salvador.  In different neighborhoods, maybe they did things slightly differently than in others.  Also, mestres tend to have their preferences.  Just because M. Bimba's preferences were maybe slightly different than someone else's doesn't mean that he changed capoeira.  He just liked to play a certain way.  Play music a certain way, etc.  Does that make any one mestre's capoeira any less true than another mestre's.  Let's say you are in high school and you are having trouble with a certain subject.  Any subject.  You just don't get what the teacher is saying.  Then you go to a tutor and he explains it differently and suddenly you understand.  Was what the first teacher said untrue because you couldn't understand it?  Because the tutor explained it differently, does that make it something else?  Or was it the same thing that was just taught differently?  Maybe one teacher has a round about way of teaching and one has a more direct route.

As far as a revolution, I would say that M. Bimba revolutionized teaching methods with the academy and the sequence, but angoleiros now have academy's too.  They also use sequences too, so the revolution that M. Bimba created was also adopted by angoleiros, no?

Ah curve ball lol, I meant to say wasn't Bimba's Capoeira revolutionary? but you explained the point very clear regardless...I do think evolution and revolution are rhythmic. In the days of old, capoeira was played with little evolutions here and there as you say based on different parameters. I think Mestre Bimba took it to another level because he created a revolution...I wanted to emphasize on this because it is minimized when you say "oh every one else had a vision" of course everyone had a vision...but capoeira played here and there were still undertood when it came time to play in the roda M. Pastinha would say" the capoeira he taught he had not tampred with" and there was a reason to say this (whether it can be substantiated or not)...Bimba's capoeira  was now different functionally, so was the technlogy that created it...and hence the language was different, that was then. Now years have come and gone, a lot of the movements have been disseminated, this is perhaps part of the rhythm...ebb and flow. So yes sequences have been adopted by angoleiros...the matter now becomes cost and who is paying?

Like I said, I think the revolution was in the teaching and training methods.

"Bimba's capoeira  was now different functionally, so was the technlogy that created it"

Please explain how so I know what you are talking about.

Cost and paying...if you are talking about money, I think that affects capoeira a great deal these days.  I also heard that tournament capoeira was largely pushed because people were getting money from the government for it.  So money is a key factor in modern capoeira whether it is angola, regional, or something else.

 Hmmm we seem to be speaking at cross purposes as I said in my previous post this is my relationship with the roots of capoeira............

"An Shiffd. I am a contemporay player. I identify myself as a capoeirista, an by that essentially I mean with the energy and space created by the ritual, (an in whatever form angola or contemporary it is a ritual from my experience of other rituals christian and, pagan  and old chrisitian ones that mix the two) This identity come from the times when I am in tune enough with the roda to feel its existance in liminal space, no time, no space, as though all rodas co-exist in the same space, not as a memory but as a viseral presence. There is no Time in the right sort of roda; an all present are capoeiristas; going back as far as when the floor that vibrated to the drum was earth rather than sports hall paraquet flooring. This is not what I have read, this is what I feel, an have always felt. I may be alone in this, I think I probably am, but , to me, capoeira is Not just the movements."

that is my experience of capoeira and what it essentially is, the energy is the root and heart in my experience?. Its true I don't know lineages in depth, from my experience of my old prof who was very much into lineage and Their version of the history of capoeira (which firmly stopped at Bimba and dismissed the capoeira before it) it seemes merely a way to ensure bragging rights (`my dad, is Like WELL important, yours is pants") which put me Right off learning them. This may be a biased view.

An I would never ever visit a few workshops and then decide I knew everything about angola. I know it already, old men;... right?.... low slow game, tucked in shirts, shiney shoes only about 3 moves to be repeated over and over with painful slowness, constant fear the ancesters may be offended.

Lennon you know you are an angoleira...ok for 5mins lol, but thank you for this....and no you are not alone on this, although I will say this path is a difficult one. Have you ever posited this feeling where you learn capoeira? And if you have how is it been received?

I don't think you are alone in that at all ;)

Axe

ejodudo: Thankyou :0) But Ummmm my point was rather if I can feel these things not as an angoleira then you don't have to be one to respect an listen to the roots of the art(and I think Espantalho is a regional player an as he gets it, thats two of us ),. In relation to how my understanding has been recieved by my teachers, I spoke to my first prof about it once when I was very young in capoeira, she said very little and looked concerned. She asked me about a year later why the roda was a circle, when hacked off with me for doing something she felt was disrespectful, I asked if it was to help hold and raise the axe, she shouted at me; it was not the right answer although I forget her explanation of the Truth of the matter. Later when I refered to the feeling in an article for the groups mag the senior belts editing changed my brief description of that feeling to from `I feel' to `I have read'. Basically they thought I was making it up. I have kept stum in my current group, no need to upset my instructors. My main prof  has stated to play capoeira it must pulse in your blood, he expresses the energy through the movements. When on top form with a equal opponent he plays an amazing game, flowing through 3dimensional spcae around the other player with split second timing, I think because he simply becomes what he feels, for him its no more convoluted than that. But I don't think he'd understand my take on the energy.  I think I may have just argued against my own argument about contemporary players there, Damn. Mind you I bet there are any angoleiras on here who feel the `energy' approach isn't their cup of tea too and to hippy and weird.

Is this angola or regional?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmFiIH2ZnuA

What about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVLHoy5p9fA

Me!me!! I feel too, maybe its a woman thing are we allowed to say that. I think as a whole, most angola schools teach or accept the ideas of energy coming from invisible realms into the rodaq and the roda giving back. I also think (two of my friends are studying under capoeira angola teacher in europe) this is a big difference in this debate we are having. I think Espantalho had commented on this a while back individual spirituality in modern groups is highly valued (paraphrasing) I know for angola groups collective or individual it wont matter because the rituals follow a certain incline. I don't know if I expressed what I am thinking correctly. So the rituals in most angola groups play a very central role and not so much fluff. A question like this where I train will get you at least 30-45mins of engagement, my friends have said the same thing and both are in different schools and different lineages

Theres tons of games of individuals we can post.. but I dont think they move the topic and we have probably strayed way too far, again.

Theres an obvious difference between Regional de Bimba of today, and Capoeira Angola.  That we know.   We have also established that theres a variety of contemporana groups that lean in the middle of Regional and Angola and fan out both ways toward each extreme.

I think what has happened is that Goodboy has transcended the two lines after 20 years in capoeira and his old ass is open and humble enough to share his findings.. the marks of a great student and teacher.  M.Joao Grandes lineage is strong in this one.

I don't really think that it's too far off topic at all.  The first video show 3 very talented Mestres doing capoeira that is pretty direct without a lot of ritual.  I don't think any of them can trace their lineage back to M. Bimba.  So would it be safe to say that a more direct game of capoeira without a lot of ritual existed before M. Bimba?  If so, what is the difference between Angola and Regional?  So far no one has been able to point at anything more than the orchestra and the rhythm.  So as Goody said "No, really what is the difference?"

I posted the second video, because people seem to forget that Regional wasn't the only game that M. Bimba taught in his academy.

1st video I think is most often called Capoeira Moderna.  Going out on a limb there.  Contemporaranea (sp) is another name people might throw at it...  or just Capoeira is what mostly the word I think they would use.  It is not completely out of the box to think someone might call it Capoeira Regional, nor is it out of the box that in a roda/gathering like that they will play the Angola toque and sing songs about being Angoleiros/angola/jogo de angola.  We can get rather confused about wanting to put everything in a nice neat box, maybe it fits in a few different boxes.  Capoeira da Bahia for sure.  We can call it that.  That may be a key difference if we want to know about where these people come from.....

All 3 of those great mestres come from Bahia.  And that is a point of pride and identity I think they all carry in their work in Brazil and internationally/hollywood etc.  They don't sing songs about Bahia and being Angoleiros without some knowing what it means culturally.  To me its important to recognize and respect that.  This is the culture they grew up in, their heritage, for others it may just be song lyrics, but not for them. 

2nd is Capoeira Regional I believe.  I could be totally wrong.

@espan  I think the initial idea was supposed to be zoomed out or more general, not as focused on game for game.  I get what you are saying, and I think what Shiff touches on is valid.. THere seems to be a high percentage of Bahian mestres/groups here in the states.. crap i think most of the west coast is full of Bahian influenced capoeira.. and these groups seem to fit into the grey area that Chicago is referring to.

The only other thing that Angola groups tend to not do that some Capoeira contemporana groups do, is play the other varied games set by toques?  Like Benguela, Miudinho, Samango (I think thats paticular to a group) Iuna, and obviously SBG de Bimba/Regional.  The one "other" game that both play is Apanha Laranja.

Agreed Shiffd, agree Manhoso...

I think at least from the Pastinha lineage although I have noticed it with other angola schools...the money game is probably the one big difference; meaning a special game on its own, but then I also have noticed if for example you dropped your hat, dobrao or any loose artifact in a traditional game...the game may indeed change to a "money game". So most angola schools do not have toques differentiating games, traditional games start slow and tend to be a jogo de dentro and develops...short burst of speed, speedy games all exist. Now this is not to say they are dissimilar or similar...again functions are different. I don't know why M.Bimba exploded his (e.g categorized his toques...I can take a guess, but perhaps other people can comment on the reasoning) this is one part of the discontinuity that people claim was different, functionality yes, absolutely...fundamentally NO, at least not to those who have spent years within the regional or its extension...moderna!

CapoeiraGoodBoy...where are thou?

I kinda see where you are going with this but I'll expand a little more~

Toques/games that were created by Mestre Bimba and/or modern day Contemporary Mestre's are unlikely to be played used by Angola groups.

Angola has its own rich arrangement of toques and games.  Mestre Pastinha in a famous interview listed a half dozen or so that he used/taught (forgive me to skip the link).  Within the Capoeira Angola tradition I have been exposed to many toques and versions of toques myself.  Angola (of course), SBP, SBG, ticotico, santa maria (2 or 3 versions within Angola, not counting Regional/more modern versions), benguela (not the regional one, but I've been exposed to that too), Iuna (not the reigonal one, but exposed to that one too), cavalaria (about 3 versions), jeje, barravento, samba (this isn't angola or regional, samba is samba)...and well I'm probably forgetting the rest. I've heard a few that aren'T necessarily Capoeira, but just berimbau rythems whichwould not be specific to a Capoeira 'style' and which Angoleiros often might know, play and/or teach to their Angola students....

There are Angola groups that just play Angola toque or one game to a Angola, SBP, SBG setup.

There are 'regional' groups that only play to SBG de Angola.

As a generalization I think it would be that Angola toque and game seems to be the default/mainstay Capoeira Angola groups.  For 'non-Angola' groups (Regional is a bit tricky) I think it is most common that they play SBG really really fast. 

I think you find (IMO boring) one toque/game only groups in both designations.  And you find lots of groups playing different varieties of toques and games.

I think by music and game selections I think you can edit the common misinformation given and create more accurate and fair assessments of the styles

Capoeira Angola~

Usually misinformation is given saying that Capoeira Angola as a style is slower, lower to the ground more traditional etc. etc.

Accurate assessment-  For Capoeira Angola the primary game and toque played is Angola.  This toque is most often played at a slower pace as is the game, and movements are often done lower to the ground, in a crouched posture.  Other varieties of games that Angoleiros play are usually drawn from older toques and traditions, although modern arrangements/usages are also existant.

Capoeira Regional

Usually misinformation is given saying that Capoeira Regional is upright and aggressive etc.

Accurate assessment-  Mestre Bimba created Capoeira Reigonal.  He created many toques and games for his students, many of which are similar to Capoeira Angola toques and games but decidedly different in arrangement and naming.

Contemporary Capoeira

There are many groups which use the Sao Bento Grande toque as their primary toque and may or may not play Angola.  These groups most common games are played upright and to a fast tempo.  The play itself is charactarized as either being very aggressive or being very flashy and acrobatic.  This type of Capoeira may be thought of or referred to as Capoeira Regional even in cases that the toque, battaria and game actually come from Capoeira Angola not Mestre Bimba's Regional.  Modern Capoeristas/contemporary Capoeiristas tend to play toques and games drawn from a wide variety of traditions, some older traditions of Capoeira Angola, some of Mestre Bimba's teachings and some newer toques, games and traditions invented by innovative modern Mestres like Mestre Suassuna and Mestre Camisa.

and so the differences are really tendencies?

Probably tendencies or preferences.

@ shiff-

Hot nickles!

Im glad we could solve it without that old goodboy mutherfucker meandering back into his own thread.

 With all do respect, brother (voice is hard to hear in text, I mean this is a positive way, not being sarcastic), at times I get the sense that you may be seeing the ladies face, but not the lady.

To me the game Cubano plays is great, but one should not need to play such a game in such a way to be an Angoleiro.  His style, traditions and ways of expressing himself, clearly are not the end-all be all of Capoeira Angola, one manifestation.   Many Angoleiros do not play like him, but are Angoleiros through and through.   I will agree though, if we are liberal with 'like' that if someone plays a game like that, its hard to fathom they would not know this idea of the Angoleiro and not accept characterization as an Angoleiro...but I also said a few posts back that some of these 'modern' 'contemporary' Capoeiras in Bahia sing songs about 'eu sou Angoleiro' and maybe they don't go around teaching Capoeira Angola per se, but put them to it, will they deny being Angoleiros?  Would Mestre Bimba deny or dislike Charactarization as an Angoleiro?  I think not.  I've even tried it, not all is as it sseems  Angola is not exclusive, nor avoided, espeiclaly in Bahia.

All of these traditions, convenstions customs, tico tico (apanha laranja), Santa Maria (perhaps you did not mention), Benguela (de Angola, not Mestre Bimba's Banguela which is all most people know outside Angola circles...such that some young/green Angoleiros might thing Benguela is a regional thing), etc. and so forth....

I'm sorry but you wil lfind that not all Angola groups know all these games and traditions and chamadas, and not all do in the same way...and that we have Chamadas and games and toques that you may not be so familiar with...its not the point man.  Its not the point.  That is what CGB is talking about and seeing Ithink. And this is not Capoeira Angola fading.  Like Mestre Suassuna talks about (I finally understood his message over the years) there were no lines in the past where because people's Capoeira was different they had to walk around with different names.  Culture was shared, and so going forth should be.  In Russia Mestre No had a Batizado at the space our school there shares with an authentic (in Mestre Bimba's lineage) regional school.  They were invited and welcomed to our event, they came, it was awesome.  CDO guys came, FICA guys came, lots of people came.  Mestre No insisted everyone play.  There was no judgement on how or what games.  We played Capoeira Angola and all were welcome.  Mestre No talked about what kind of Capoeira he wanted to see, talked about listening to hte music etc. he taught and shared, and people came with what they had.  This is going to be how it is going forward.  As long as you hold onto your tradition, no one is going to take it away from you.  Capoeira Angola is not weakening man, and having open exchange with Capoeira Regional or whatever is not a bad thing.  Seeing our commonalities, not differences, is a good thing.  It doesn't mean we will forget who we are.

My post had nothing to do with Angola vs. Angola or saying that there are no similarities between styles.  My point is that there are differences between Angola and "non-Angola" Capoeira.  Capoeira Goodboy was saying that he is beginning to thing that there is no difference and I am simply showing the difference.  This doesn't mean that we can not go to eachothers events and have a good time...

jason-

Far be it for me to argue with a student of one of the best angolieros that M.Joao Grande ever produced... But you havent really been picking up what has been put down here.  WE have already established that Bimbas Regional, and I use the term properly, eventually was visibly different from Pastinhas style of capoeira.

We have already established that the lines are greyed with the contemporary groups whos lineage draw from Bahia.

You comparing Cubanos game with a newb, and Bimbas 1950 game is silly.

Ill do you one favor and illustrate the initial point.  C.M. Xuxu and M.Poncaninhos game, whom in your mind are "regional" capoeiristas

http://youtu.be/dKUGl6-9WTk

Heres Itapua Beiramar and Guaxini

http://youtu.be/APXVvO0ut8E

And as to this "traditional" term you continue to speak of.. traditional to whom.. cubano? You are clumping what you narrowly define as capoeira angola and thinking it applies to everyones angola group.  Your tradition is traditional in YOUR group, not everyone elses.

Heres Mestre Caicara (an Angoliero mestre in case you didnt know)  playing what you would classify as????

http://youtu.be/KFNKerTSHKw

i could post videos of Mestre No, Mestre Russo, and other groups whom dont fit into your pigenhole.. but we both know you have corpo fechado and cerebro fechado mixed up.

PGCA Brother Jason, if no one has told you, let me be the first; your view of capoeira angola is on the very far right, I will leave it at that. You choose to see differences that is your perogative and if you choose to see similarities that is also an individuals perogative....the truth however lies in between, somewhere

Peace Brother Jason.

I agree that each of the movements in capoeira is a principle that is informed by "science".  To me that is what makes capoeira more than any of it's individual parts would initially suggest.  And I also appreciate that there have been various videos posted on this thread for us to analyse, or simply to illustrate the point a poster is making.

However, it is presicely the "scientific" or principled nature of capoeira that has inspired me to question what the true differences between capoeira angola and non-capoeira angola are.  Not on the face, but at the root.  "Science", it seems to me, is different from technology.  The scientific principal of gravity can be applied to to the building an airplane or building a boat. Flying and sailing are different techniques of moving about the world, yet are based upon scientific principles.  The principles of capoeira angola's movements can be applied to sex, conversation, or construction.  Capoeira Angola is the mother of all movement.

Also, I think any angoleiro that has had a chance to go to Bahia might understand what I mean when I say the capoeira of bimba's son's academy feels like capoeira angola.  First hand experience is key, but theories are important as well.   I have been blessed to train directly with Mestre Joao Grande, travel to Bahia regurally, as well as have a roda at my academy weekly (every Friday) for the last 7 years.  I had a long discussion with MJG this past Sunday, and even he is not thinking about things the same way he did 20 years ago, or even two years ago. A few examples: 1. when I began MJG taught volta do mundo going counterclockwise.  However, he now insists on doing the volta do mundo clockwise.  2.  MJG used to have the Medio in between the Gunga and Viola.  Now the Gunga sits in the middle. 3. Over the past two years MJG insits that people call the chamada in front of the Bateiria.  Formerly, he would allow chamadas to be called anywhere in the roda.

During my time in capoeira I myself have witnessed 3 major changes, and more, in the ritual structure of the roda.  MJG, considered to be the most traditional of angola mestres, has instituted these changes.  I don't think the MJG is altering the "science" of capoeira angola with these changes.  Only the face.  Of course I've talked in depth with Mestre about these changes.  In March I asked MJG about a chamada de costa during a roda.  He stopped the roda and, in front of everyone, had a 45 minute discussion about why he made the change (sorry, I won't tell you what he said.).   I think that if MJG is growing, changing, and innovating at 80, I will follow in his footsteps.

Thus my question..........

Flying, sailing, walking are explained by science, but are natural things. Scientific principals come along later to explain them and help us to copy them. Nature is the mother of all movement.

Have you read the rest of the thread dummy?  Or did you just want to say something?

"cerebro fechado"...hahahahahaha

from http://www.capoeira.bz/mestreacordeon/articles/interview.html

Revista Capoeira: Since you mentioned Mestre Bimba and Mestre Pastinha, do you think that Capoeira Angola and Capoeira Regional can both exist in harmony?

Mestre Acordeon: I have a lot of trouble with this question. My problem is two-sided: The first difficulty is regarding the inadequate use of the labels "Capoeira Angola" and "Capoeira Regional". The second problem refers to a false dichotomy that generally isn't questioned: it's either Angola style or Regional.

Through literature and oral tradition, we are aware that capoeira has been around for more than 200 years. Around the second decade in the 1900's, among many different mestres and styles, Bimba was recognized for his unique approach that came to be known as "Regional". With the opening of his "academy" and through his charisma and work as an educator of a large number of young people from Bahia, Mestre Bimba decisively contributed to the acceptance of capoeira as a valued art form, as well as in the process of survival of many other popular expressions of African origin. For me, Capoeira Regional is Bimba's capoeira, or that which follows his foundations and precepts very closely. All other manifestations of capoeira should be known as simply "capoeira", or if you like, Capoeira Angola.

Revista Capoeira: What were the foundations and precepts of Capoeira Regional? Aren't they derived from the more traditional Capoeira Angola?

Mestre Acordeon: In the first place, the concept of "traditional" can't be quantified or qualified in terms of "more" or "less", "better" or "worse". Capoeira is a dynamic art that has assumed many forms and dresses through time, continually "inventing" new traditions. This has been one of the most important factors in its survival. Bimba's capoeira reflected his personality and style. It was based on a method of training, creative for his time, and it had a very characteristic drive as a result of the way in which the Mestre sang and played his berimbau and pandeiro during his rodas. São Bento Grande was played for a less ritualized combat, focusing on the fighting aspect; Banguela was played for a floor game of constant intermingling attacks and counterattacks during which the partners do not touch each other. Finally Iuna was played between capoeiristas who were more experienced and able to use elegant and more difficult movements. So, for starters, if more than one berimbau and two pandeiros are played, then one is not practicing Bimba's capoeira the way it should be done.

If we admit that Bimba's capoeira is derived from this previous capoeira called "Angola", we have to accept that Capoeira Angola is all encompassing and not codified and admit almost everything in its practice because "capoeira is everything the mouth eats." In my time and outside of Mestre Bimba's school, and therefore not Capoeira Regional, capoeira was played with the uniform or with whatever clothes one had on at the time; with or without shoes; sometimes with one berimbau, other times with more than one or none; with a pandeiro or castanets; in a fight-oriented or a more ritualized way; it always depended on the situation, the capoeiristas evolved, or the will of the "owner" of the roda. This was the great melting pot from which Mestre Bimba chose some elements and codified others, making his practice consistent in terms of his own perspective and his concept of educational values for his students.

Revista Capoeira: But in Capoeira Angola, aren't shoes always worn and tradition always followed?

Mestre Acordeon: What tradition? I think you're referring to a style of capoeira that I call "Contemporary Capoeira Angola". Generally this "school" recommends practicing capoeira exclusively with shoes on, black pants and yellow shirts; it presents itself with well-defined attitudes and mannerisms; it has a rhetoric based on "tradition", and in many of its affiliations, it presents itself with a somewhat belabored afro-centric discourse. Actually, I like the aesthetic of this capoeira and to a certain point its proposal in terms of the value placed on capoeira as an art, and the value it gives to its music, rituals, and African roots. On the other hand, this capoeira is a very recent manifestation, and to some extent, presents an attitude which has already begun to lose popularity in the United States, similar to the stance of some of the more radical African Americans. I find its academically constructed rhetoric and its position in terms of "politically correctness" of social issues a little bit overdone and its method of training very European and contemporary. In my view, this strategy is inconsistent with the more spontaneous manifestations of an art form with African roots as strong as those in capoeira.

Revista Capoeira: So you are against this Capoeira Angola?

Mestre Acordeon: Not at all, just as I am not against "Contemporary Capoeira Regional", another recent historic reinterpretation. Capoeira's strength and beauty resides in its diversity. There is no style that can represent all of capoeira, nor is there one mestre that can be considered the "owner" of capoeira. If that were the case, capoeira would be very dull. Capoeira is the mixture of all of us with our interpretations, truths, and differences.

There is a SCIENCE behind the fact you can walk, then there is science of explaining the fact you walk...

There is a SCIENCE that governs nature, you are part of this nature and hence have created a science to understand this nature... movement is the mother of all sciences!!

In any event,

if A = B

B = C, then

A = C

To me, Capoeira angola is movement, movement is nature and hence Capoeira angola is nature...the difference are functionalities, shiffd described this as tendencies...I see no difference fundamentally!

From http://www.capoeira.bz/mestreacordeon/capoeira/history3.html

Both Capoeira Angola and Capoeira Regional have generated new schools and styles based upon interpretations of the teachings of Mestre Pastinha and Mestre Bimba. Some of these schools have attempted to maintain the characteristics of the original styles of these great mestres, while others have developed their own characteristics and styles. 

Most visible in the United States are schools that I consider belonging to the following stylistic approaches: Contemporary Capoeira Regional, Contemporary Capoeira Angola and Contemporary Capoeira.

• Contemporary Capoeira Regional, which emphasizes the efficiency of capoeira's techniques and the athletic aspects of the art, emerged in the early 70's and became extremely popular.
• 
  
• Contemporary Capoeira Angola codified some elements of Capoeira Angola, developed an articulated discourse based on "traditional values," and a well-defined political agenda based on Afro-centric perspectives. This approach started in the early 80's and has influenced the thinking of present day capoeira.
• 
  
• Contemporary Capoeira is the predominant approach in Brazil, encompassing all schools that do not fall strictly into any of the previous categories. Some of these schools understand capoeira as a multi-dimensional art form and attempt to reflect in their display the diversity and richness of today's capoeira.

"Capoeira is not a completed work, exclusive to one group of people. Capoeira is a combination of all of us, with all of our interpretations, truths, and differences." - M. Acordeon

CM Itapua Beiramar, who is M. Nestor's son is amazing.

Now since M. Nestor was a student of M. Leopoldina, he would be an angoleiro, right?  But he also spent time in Grupo Senzala...ahhh it's all so confusing.  Maybe we should simply stop trying to shoe horn everything.

So what I'm thinking here was that there was a movement in the 70's that pulled capoeira in one direction.  In the 80's, there was another movement pulling capoeira in another direction.  Now in 2012, maybe capoeira is finding a balance or equilibrium, or maybe a new movement is happening.  As Manhoso pointed out, there are now capoeiristas such as M. Poncianinho, CM. Itapua Beiramar, and even GoodBoy himself that are now transcending previous labels and barriers.  It is a new day.  Capoeira changes over time.  If M. Joao Grande is making changes to the capoeira in his academy, is there something wrong with that?  No, I don't think so.  I think that this is part of the ebb and flow of capoeira.  It is the older Mestres such as M. Joao Grande, M. Acordeon, M. Suasunna, M. No, that should guide the changes and natural evolution of capoeira.  As these Mestres make changes in their own academy, since they have lots of students, it affects capoeira as a whole.  There is nothing wrong with this.  It is natural.  It is a new and exciting time for capoeira.  Capoeira is not a snap shot in time.  I would like to hear more of Goody's recent changes or more current views on capoeira.

There are a myriad of eating utensils; in the west it is boiled down to cutlery/silverware they are a spoon, knife and fork (although they have many combinations of these utensils these days). A knife to cut, a spoon to scoop and a fork to poke...however you can use a spoon to cut and/or a knife to poke etc, etc, etc the point here is at every epoch there is always a spectrum of a thing (degrees)...it is you (general) an individual who locks themselves in one or two colors, until you realize there is either many colors or in fact no color. Although this does not mean to say, others will not infringe their ideas and inflict pain of their two colors on an individual...it is always the case with the human. It is called politics; having said that...An African derived religion, an African derived art...in an African derived milieu...WHAT THE HECK IS "AFROCENTRIC"?

BTW capoeira the spirit is immutable, it is people who change!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOs9yAinJbQ&feature=share 

part 1 of 10.

Afrocentricity is a word that a lot of people throw around without knowing the actual definition.  Lucky for you, I actually do know the real definition.  I will define it in my own words as I don't feel like rummaging through my old school notes to get the exact definition.  Afrocentricity was first defined by Dr. Karenga of Cal State Long Beach who defines it as having EGYPT as the focal point for one's thought process and world view.  Later Dr. Asante of Temple University defined it as having AFRICA as the focal point for one's thought process or world view.  This is the definition that I like better.  Dr. Azibo also defined it, but I forget his definition.  Maybe someone can look it up and remind me.

Thank you for sharing.

Thank you.

hmmm...Manhoso, do you know what year M. Suasunna started Miudinho?

From mestre.. but to track by year.. it started in the 80's as Mestres reaction to some "disfigurements" that were happening to contemporana at the time.. 15 years later he developed the sequencias, and toque.. in 2004 the graduating class or Turma Geração Miudinho was set loose.

"O Miudinho tem doze seqüências que são baseadas no Jogo de Dentro. O Miudinho veio da capoeira Angola, é a capoeira Angola jogada com mais agilidade, mais entrosamento. Eu peguei movimentos que estavam esquecidos, movimentos da capoeira antiga que eu aprendi na Bahia com grandes capoeiristas como o Mestre João Pequeno, Mestre João Grande, Mestre Papo Amarelo, peguei movimentos do Jogo de Dentro e movimentos de um jogo conhecido como Dois por Dois, que é bem mais fechado que o Jogo de Dentro, modernizei a maneira de fazê-la, mudei as seqüências. O nome Miudinho surgiu porque eu estava observando que os capoeiristas estavam jogando muito longe um do outro e na nossa época a gente jogava bem pertinho... então eu falava para o pessoal: “eu quero o jogo mais miúdo, mais dentro, joga bem miudinho”."

"O Miudinho não é uma capoeira nova, é uma característica diferente de se mostrar a capoeira. Assim como existe o jogo de Iúna, o jogo de São Bento Grande, existe o jogo de Miudinho que é um jogo onde os capoeiristas jogam bem próximos um do outro, utilizando muita flexibilidade e destreza. O Miudinho é basicamente um jogo de chão."

Na década de 90, Mestre Suassuna passou e trabalhou essas seqüências para seus mais novos discípulos que, com uma capoeira rica e vigorosa, ficou conhecida como a “Geração Miudinho”. Com simpatizantes no mundo todo o Mestre Suassuna e seu miudinho ganham adeptos que constantemente freqüentam sua academia, no bairro Santa Cecília em São Paulo, para aprender seus segredos e mandingas do jogo da capoeira.

Interesting your Mestre says this, then you repeat it...

Bimba took other African expressions and re-created his idea of capoeira (well if that idea is not palatable), he took modalities of capoeira played then and expanded on it several fold...then some Black Americans took expressions of African discourse, applied it to capoeira...again I ask what is Afrocentric? (African centered view)...

I think the biggest issue I have with what you posted about Mestre Acordeon pov is the same thing others fail to see; experiences of other people is very legitimate and capoeira provides avenues for each and everyone...if it is not viable, the spirit kills it. So while Acordeon reconciles his point at the end of his statement it does beg the question why even bring it up...?

Once upon a time, hiphop also an African expression was labeled "Afrocentric" and was hated and spat on by other ethnicities and cultures for the most part because they could not understand this subculture or even verbage...today it has lost most of that flava...for good reason and good measure, i think one should understand a thing first before using loaded terms.

I dont know how much more direct I can be, you re like the loud child in the room who keeps interrupting the grownups talk about grownup things.

PGCA Brother Jason, if no one has told you, let me be the first; your view of capoeira angola is on the very far right, I will leave it at that. You choose to see differences that is your perogative and if you choose to see similarities that is also an individuals perogative....the truth however lies in between, somewhere

@ejodudu

I am on the “Right”??? I didn’t know you spoke in Western terms.   You know, we can pretend that a human and a monkey are the same and bring Monkey's into our homes and have relationships with them and raise them as our children and maybe, one day, even marring them... After all, our DNA are 99% the same. There is no real difference when we look at the similarities…

Telling me that I “chose” to see differences is like telling a Man, when he looks at an attractive Woman, that he is only choosing to see differences because Men and Women are basically the same and making love to her is no different than making love to a dude...  I acknowledge the similarities but these so-called similarities don’t blur the line for me.  I know that a Monkey is a Monkey and that a Woman is a Woman and that Capoeira de Angola is Capoeira de Angola.

As far as I am concerned, you haven't said anything...  You really have no clue as to what I hold as "Traditional" nor do you know my Teacher yet you throw his name around as if you do...  You completely misunderstand my point in posting the last videos and your response was like a reactionary little bitch (female dog)...  I know why you all have a vested interest in making  Contemporary Capoeira the equal to Capoeira de Angola...  It is hard being a bastard child: I understand!  When Capoeira Goodboy raised this question, he wasn't even talking about the Capoeira that you do being not much different than the Angola...  He was talking about "Bimba's Regional Capoeira" but you think that he is validating what you (and your lover on this board) have been saying on other threads...

First of all, I wouldn't consider the term afrocentric to be loaded.  It's a term that came from scholars of africana/black studies trying to express themselves and their ideas.  When I was studying the field of Africana studies, top scholars in the field used the term all the time.

Why bring it up?  Hmmm...pretty simple.  He was talking about the different "styles" of capoeira at the time.  In other words, it was kind of necessary for him to bring it up if he was going to differentiate between these different "styles".

Now as far as Mestre Acordeon says it and I repeat it.  This is not just blind he says it and I repeat it.  You know one thing that M. Acordeon always tells us to do research, read the people that agree with him and read the people that don't agree with him, listen to the people that agree with him and listen to the people that don't agree with him.  This way we can be educated and form our own conclusions (how many mestres tell their students that?).  So I did, I read all the books I could on capoeira (starting from when their were only 3 in english).  But I found more than just the holy trinity of capoeira books.  I found that M. Preguica had a book at SF State, so I called the book store and ordered it.  I ordered a couple of books from an angola school on the east coast that were really just spiral bound documents and collection of articles.  More books started to become available in english, so I read some of those as well.  I started studying Ifa, making offerings to the orisa, received my one hand of orunmilla.  I went to school and minored in Africana studies where I talked to some amazing scholars on the subject and was forced to read all kinds of stuff.  As a matter of fact, just 2 days ago one of my former Professors of Africana studies asked if I would go and give a lecture to his class.  I went to some angola rodas and talked to the local angoleiros.  When I was young in capoeira and very impressionable, I read that capoeira angola was the more "traditional" style and I was like "wow, I want to learn about this more traditional style".  However, as I got older I learned a lot.  In my Africana studies classes, I really learned to look at an argument from various angles and to really dissect it.  I learned that sometimes people are just romanticizing.  And I realized (IMO) that it really was just rhetoric and that this "style" was no more traditional than any other capoeira.  Wait, but those angoleiros tricked a young and impressionable me...at the time into thinking...grrrrr.  Good thing I went to school and really learned how to look at these arguments from all sides.  Thank god for education.  But that was a conclusion that I came to that works for me.  Maybe someone else prefers to look at it differently.  So now yes, I agree with M. Acordeon.  He is a very smart man who really thinks about and looks at the various issues in capoeira and has done a lot of research himself.

And there is nothing wrong with having a belabored afrocentric discourse.  I myself went to school and learned to have a belabored afrocentric discourse.  As a matter of fact, if you ever do studies in the field, you will find that much of it IS belabored and overly wordy because you have black scholars publishing papers and arguing with white scholars and on both sides they are trying to one up the other by using the biggest words possible, so this is the language that Africana studies is often communicated in...overly wordy (notice how I chose a nice simple way of saying it) and belabored.

Good video.  I am also concerned with all the vampires around.  All these vampire movies...twilight, blade, etc.  Do you ever notice that they tend to come out in series.  It's never just one vampire movie.  But what I really have a problem with is the damn zombies.  That's another discussion altogether though.

I agree that the 1st video is hard to put in a box.  I very much like the capoeira though.  If I had to choose angola or regional, it's not regional, so I would say angola, but that's just one point of view.  M. Boa Gente definitely considers himself an angoleiro though.  I'm not sure what the other two mestre say what their style is, or even if they feel a need to label it.  I actually kind of like just calling it capoeira da bahia.  That's easier, isn't it.

2nd video appears to be M. Bimba's game of banguela.   I don't know the people playing or their lineage though.

@1) hahahahahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaahhahahahahahhehehehehehehehehehe...no you didn't hahahahahaha you are always serious I didn't know you had it in you...we are also 50% banana lol Ok..well point taking!!

@2.) PGCA Brother Jason,

Physically it is no different...a man can make love to another man, just as he can make love to another woman or a woman and a woman, you don't have to agree as there is nothing to disagree about...(the human being has lived on this earth for a long time and ALL the tendencies still exist) the body goes through the same physiological changes. The point here is what are your tendencies? You like a beautiful woman, do you like her dark, tall, short, fluffy, red-boned etc, etc...these are what preferences you want because this is what your spirit is seeking. In all these you find women who do not fit your bill physically and yet tug at you "emotionally"...in the same vein you find some women who fit the preferences you care for physically, emotionally, mentally and all the "llies" you can find...they just don't do it...and there are some you just don't think about because well you don't think about...this is capoeira!!

I was thinking you were being antagonistic or just been a contrarian...but I think I see what you are trying to articulate...unfortunately it is pointless, because it would 'seem' it is now you looking for validation. o pulo do gato...moving on

...becareful it is, it has its place but IMHO not in the universe capoeira created...You are taking a word that @ its root means 'African centered view' and applying it to an African expression...it makes so sense, except if you are trying to remove capoiera from its source or mean something totally insidious!?!? I hope I am making a point? In this age, where people are saying tradition is only meaningful within a lineage...very soon it will say the portuguese invented capoeira too...

Anyways, yes you are indeed educated, but much of it is in the western episteme...these things do not matter much within the realm of capoeira...perhaps I should say matters less....because one epistemology is anthithesis to the other, hence we ALL seem to be having a subtle cultural war seemingly unseen. Capoeira is subject...no its object, no its either...or is it neither?...A chapa to the face is just that a chapa to the face!!

Is there a difference from an african diasporic view and an afrocentric view?  And out of the article that I posted which discussed the topic at hand, you chose to take this piece, which wasn't what I highlighted (I highlighted what I thought was more relevant to the conversation). Why?  Are you trying to read too deeply into something here and if so, why?  As a matter of fact, M. Acordeon says that he likes the value it places on the african roots.  So what is the problem?

PS

Saying a tradition is only meaningful within a lineage was never my point.  My point was more who are you to say that one tradition is any more traditional than any other and what qualifies you to say so?  Were you there in pre-M. Bimba times?  I don't think you are that old.

Making love to a Woman is physically no different than "making love" to another Man???  I don't know what universe you are from but in my book a vagina is much different than an asshole...  But maybe that is just me.   Emotionally, I agree that one can feel "love" for anyone regardless as to what gender one "prefers" but physically, you can't tell me that there is no difference.   In Capoeira (which is what we are really talking about), Spiritually and Emotionally, we may "love" Capoeira but the physical application may be completely different.  That is all that I am saying.  I have nothing against Regional or Contemporary Capoeira.  In fact, I love to watch those Contemporary cats do their flips and such.  I just don't look at it as the same as Angola.  And yes, I consider Angola to be "Traditional" as it relates to the curriculum.  Manhoso posted a quote from M. Suasunna  Where he talks about the "lost movements" that he got from Mestre Joao Grande and other mestres...  What "lost Movements"??? Could he be talking about those movements from that "Traditional Curriculum"?

But for the sake of argument, lets say that there is not difference...  Two people of the same gender "making love" produces nothing!  No life can be made from two men sexing each other; likewise with two women.  You don't really believe that there is no difference between men and women do you.  Please tell me that you are only attempting to be consistent in your argument.  Anybody else agree with Him...

...it is a HUGE point within the context of how Africans and/or by extension diasporic Africans approach Capoeira...we are not a monolith...in regardless my tendencies, linear discussions are difficult...point above taken; Unfortunately the topic is too narrow...I was only pointing out a thing usually a certain ppl say..."If I S..T on you...as long as I say I am sorry...its ok"

1) I think you are trying to read into something that isn't there.

2) "how Africans and/or by extension diasporic Africans approach Capoeira" so now you are arguing for a pan african perspective on capoeira?

3) Since you didn't answer my question "Is there a difference from an african diasporic view and an afrocentric view?" let me help you out. "An African derived religion, an African derived art...in an African derived milieu" Key word here "derived", which I agree.  Let me say it another way African Diasporic religion, African Diasporic art, African Diasporic milieu.  Now let me try again African syncretized religion, African syncretized art, African syncretized milieu.  Is that what you are getting at?  The difference between believing that capoeira came intact as it now is, as an art form from Africa, or whether or not it is a syncretized "mixed soup" from Africa that was developed in Brazil?

BTW, I don't know what M. Acordeon meant by the term Afrocentric.  I've never asked him about it or even looked that closely at it, I'm just taking a wild guess as to one possible meaning that you could have pulled from it.  You obviously have a problem with him using the term Afrocentric enough to say "If I S..T on you...as long as I say I am sorry...its ok"

So you are saying "it is a HUGE point within the context of how Africans and/or by extension diasporic Africans approach Capoeira".  M. Acordeon has black students who would be "diasporic Africans".  Many of them are graduated.  So are you saying that M. Calango, CM's Enxu and Cravo, Prof's Onda, Cocada, Radio Velho, Lagarta de Fogo, Pincel, are approaching capoeira in a way that M. Acordeon doesn't agree with?  But they are approaching capoeira his way, so that doesn't make sense.  I'm really confused here.

Now you yourself admitted that after M. Bimba started the academy and started using the sequence to train and that afterwards angoleiros started academies and also started using sequences to train.  So they are doing the same thing, right?  The approach is the same.  After all, the topic is still "What is the Difference Between Angola and Regional?"

lol Oh I C...I am not getting into a debate over it... you are right I am not qualified to speak however can't I ask you the same question? or even say Mestre Acordeon was he around even pre-bimba, so then what gives him the right to say this or that...you see endless diatribe my friend! I have taken ur point into consideration...just as you felt to post something of relevance to you...I posted what stuck out and thought as irrelevant thing to say...Afrocentrism is loaded, u say no...ok can we move away from it now...

I have not made love to a man as of yet maybe in the future who know lol...no seriously, I do not have the calibre to say this or that way; but it is clear our universe is big enough for that possibility and yes it is the same universe you and I reside in...I will leave the colorful explicit content alone I am too shy;) you see it as different and indeed it is, it is an obvious anatomical difference; physiologically the response is similar this is " form and function" that was my point...

PGCA Brother Jason,

you and I may indeed differ on this point, the only reason I create this dichotomy of spirit and physical is mostly for the audience...I honestly do not feel these things are that separate; we may tend to say it is, many people(s) actually believe there is.

In any event, you are the 'created'...same gender doing there thing serves it own purpose; who is it to say they are not creating anyting; who is to say creating nothing has to be just life? Haven't you noticed outsiders are in awe watching capoeristas flips and do near misses kicks...when they watch angoleiros they tend to be like wtf is the point "they are just moving in circles" (I have actually heard that before)...creating "nothing" from the outside maybe "something" on the inside.

Oshun's greatest hold on us; is the perptuation of love for our mothers!

Yes, but M. Acordeon was around long before either of us and what he witnessed was "In my time and outside of Mestre Bimba's school, and therefore not Capoeira Regional, capoeira was played with the uniform or with whatever clothes one had on at the time; with or without shoes; sometimes with one berimbau, other times with more than one or none; with a pandeiro or castanets; in a fight-oriented or a more ritualized way; it always depended on the situation, the capoeiristas evolved, or the will of the "owner" of the roda. This was the great melting pot from which Mestre Bimba chose some elements and codified others, making his practice consistent in terms of his own perspective and his concept of educational values for his students."

...which was what I thought people might be interested in.

Afrocentricity...Yes, let's move away from it.  Back to the topic of this thread...or to the topic of hunting vampires and zombies.  That's always a good one.  I'm waiting for Goody to speak more on this other topic of vampires and zombies.

lol u silly...Agreed, moving on...waiting for more food for thought from the 20 year old hahahahaha

The spirit and the physical are NOT separate...  And that is my point!  We can not separate the physical aspects of Capoeira from the spiritual and then say that there is no difference between Capoeira Angola and Non-Angola Capoeira because there are "similarities...  I am not trying to separate the physical from the spiritual.  It seems as if you are doing that.  In our analogy above (not to belabor the point), you were trying to say that there was no difference between the sexual experience of Heterosexuals and Homosexuals...  YOU were separating the Physical from the Spiritual.

Gotta go back to work!!!

make sure you salt the fries before you bag them mutherfucker.

Politics.  Perhaps even the politics of old men (many of whom have passed on) that are now passed on to a younger generation.  A couple of generations down the road here we are arguing politics that we probably don't understand the root cause of or have the whole picture of.  Just a guess...

...I guess I am retracting a bit from some other things I was stating.  I was really only speaking to the manifestations.  At the core Angola has a core science and philosophy.  My feeling is that we cannot discount this from existing or being understood outside the confines of the larger Capoeria Angola community, however we can not say it exists for sure elsewhere.  Possible is not true, its just possible.  It's possible I'm a milionaire...but well I'm just too foolish with my time and money I guess.  So we can sit here and make arguments that XYZ is the same as Capoeira Angola and containing all the same goodness, and there is no point to differentiate...but is it true?

I'll have to use another analogy.

If my farm's orange juice is 100% organic and full of vitamin C, it doesn't mean that your orange soda isn't also organic, but it could be 90% corn syrup and 10% artificial flavor and color.   It's hard to say.  And its logical to wonder, if it smells a little different, is slightly different in color, tastes a little more sweet....and has a different name....What is more important that it seems a lot like 100% organic orange juice? or well you have to find out.  I think in this thread Jason is trying to remind us that 100% organice Orange juice, is just that no matter how much the other stuff seems the same.  maybe its 100% organic grape fruit juice, still good, lots of vitamin and all that, but not the same.

PGCA Brother Jason says:

@ PGCA Brother Jason...again, I am only the created, the sexual experience of all beings has its function...it is you setting the difference(homo versus hetero). Your own experience is limited to a woman, you cannot know what it feels like to sleep with the otherwise...and saying well life is not created by the act of members of the same sex simply says you are trying to define terms you yourself did not create. The act of sex is sacred, however that statement isn't true (but for me)...especially to those who are sacrilegious and this two points must exist as those who lay in between. Ultimately, we revere one thing and discount another, value one thing and devalue another...this is the nature of dualism; we have discussed this several moons ago. I am not saying this ideology is bad, it simply is restrictive for the point been discussed right now...

What so called Angoleiros do is simply what they do and their universe mind you is very large; spirituality is NOT religiosity; my actions in a roda may or may not tell if I am spiritual, it can be revealing though...there is really no single arbiter as I believe spirituality has layers; it is true Capoeira has certain attributes that make this quality manifest one way or the other...this are just tendencies. Now that was things I think emphasizes the individual...the collective, group or institution may push a certain ideology; this ideology is what holds the culture togehter....it can align the individual or not, again tendencies!!

As I stated before putting Regional and Angola side by side is a difficulty thing as they serve differing purposes...the aspects that are comparable are more similar than dissimilar...

The human and politics are inextriacably tied...in capoeira you can choose to be apolitical, this is the exception. It does not mean you are free from others peoples politics...sooner or later one will find themselves deep in it. Look at how many people who have died over colors (any kind of manifestation you can come up with; clothes or skin) that shows a continuum...politics is real and perhaps necessary, however its direction eg destructive politics isn't...

Shiffd,

the complexity:

At the core everything has a "SCIENCE" meaning an innerworking...the human mind that understands simply gives it an explanation, it could be physical, chemical or very well be philosophical. Importantly, there can be 10 different ways to describe the thing or its innerworkings. These different ways of describing a thing has differing layers of understanding, think an onion...different points of the onion provides an attribute/characteristic; some points are close to the core, some are towards the surface...my argument here is capoeira's innerworking is at the core, on the surface, the northern position, the southern position etc, etc find ten points on the onion... The ones that talk about the core...talk about the core, the ones on the surface talk about the surface...the ones on the ends talk about the polar ends...Now what is interesting here is the ones not at the core say they know what it feels like to be at the core; because they, at the surface envelope the core...the ones are the core say they know what the surface is like, due to being closer to the center...do you see where this is going?

The illusion is the surface indeed envelopes the core, rightfully so...aspects of the core is also at the surface because the core pushes outwardly...it expands! The core has created so many layers, it has "forgotting" it too is now a surface... the different points on the onion is actually aspects of capoeira and as no being is omnipresent, we each think our point of reference is capoeira...(perhaps it is...or not) still...

I thought of how to answer your analogy, keeping my point consistent...it is ok to make comparisons, but it also not ok especially when the subject matter is not well understood, one thing seems to always get devalued in the process.

to answer your analogy even for face value, is assuming ppl care if 100% vitamin C matters more than 2% vitamin C, now if you showed that 100% vitamin C works better than 2% then that may be another matter altogether. I am saying, Angola as a philosophy, game, toque, aesthetic draws only certain individuals it needs to draw for a particular reason; just as Regional (the other position) draws its own adherents for whatever reasons...While I have submitted there is a hierarchy of understanding within the innerworking (one come from the other)...I do not submit to comparing their value, because in the end, if you say they are that different or not the same then what agenda does that serve? There are myriads of people who study Capoiera angola and do not even get it...just as much as many who study Regional and also do not get it...

...in the same vein, can I get a spiritual experience in a roda de Regional of course...can I get one in a roda de Angola of course emphatically!! the means to get there relies on different technology...however it is an @ssumption to say people play capoeira to get a spiritual experience...that is my main point; we cannot dictate the experience.

back on track!

Dictating what is to be in capoeira seems to contradict its very essence nao?  Then again.. this also depends on ones group philosophy, which one could say is dictated from the top down in some way from the founding Mestre of said group (MOST would define this as a establishment of tradition) .  We are now in a endless conundrum..

Either way, notions of capoeira philosphy and the underlying science or whatever.. is a luxury afforded by academics on the internets. I look at work that my group (and others) have done with kids who have only negative things in order to express themselves.   THAT is where the experience thrives, free of politics and other nonsense.

 I think the track was Q:  What is the difference, some answers, amongst them one answer/idea 'there is no difference' and I was rebutting, no there is a difference in that one is distinct (both are distinct but I can only speak to the one of which I know) and I was being specific to say that many qualities are shared.  Whether surface or core or whatever.  The history, the root of all, is I think we agree the same.  We also agree to differences in manifestation.  I was simply speaking to agree that there may in fact also be differences at the core...and I think as one was saying~the surface and the core are one in the same as one creates the other they can only reflect eachother, and so if there are surface differences they may very well speak to core differences.

Now you speak to work which is important and fruitful for either side of the question.  This speaks to validation.  We should steer away from validation, or the need to validate in this thread, I think, because the topic is differences.  We may at some point feel for differences in validity and value and so forth, to me this is unfair.  The work that your group does, that you do, that I do, that my group does around the world is all valid and valuable.  I agree with you that that is the most important and really touching to the 'core' of what both arts are about.  However, as traditions and arts they may be different, and the question is- what is that difference.  Perhaps you mean only to say that regardless of difference or not, the difference or the quesion at had is not as important as the actual work.  Its an academic question.

I agree with that point.  Its more of an end to this conversation though than a continuation of it.  It speaks to not caring, which well, more or less I don't.  Like I've said before, when and where we can intermingle, good!  If we can do this work together, good!  And we can both keep our individuality as well.

I think people have a great love and respect for their art.  They don't want it dismissed, nor their experiences.  To say that something similar is the same is unfair.  So much as they have their identity and their community, leave it alone.  What is seperate is seperate.  People get rather worried about evaluation, which side of the 'fence' is better and all that jazz.  All the guy on his side knows is that his side has value, leave it be.

You know, I can't wait until you come back to Los Angeles...  Lets see if you are Manho enough to make the announcement here on Capoeira.com so that you can come and talk your shit to my face.  You talk big shit behind your computer but I know that you have been to LA before and we know many of the same people even if you don't realize it.  Don't think that I take your words lightly.

LOL ...dont threaten me.

However, as traditions and arts they may be different, and the question is- what is that difference.  Perhaps you mean only to say that regardless of difference or not, the difference or the quesion at had is not as important as the actual work.  Its an academic question.

I agree with that point.  Its more of an end to this conversation though than a continuation of it.  It speaks to not caring, which well, more or less I don't.  Like I've said before, when and where we can intermingle, good!  If we can do this work together, good!  And we can both keep our individuality as well.

___________________________________

100% agreed.

What would bring light to the initial post, would be an individual whom had more A posteriori experience with two groups of different disciplines and less a priori "scientific" theory.

 BrotherJason I got to go with some quotes here.  I don't want to take you out of context, but just for clarity....

 You mention great and revered Mestres of Capoeira Angola here....  However using the terms 'most' and 'best' is inappropriate. 

This is American retoric you are pushing with these comparative/evaluative term.  I wont counter to say they are 'not' most revered or best source and all that, because it would imply something else is.  The problem is this idea of 'best' and 'most' and this idea of one true and all that.  Its inaccurate and many find it offensive.

and here I was trying really hard to ignore jason.

"You like fruit and I like fruit..."

Seeing how you can't have a conversation on these forums without talking about homosexuality, and you obviously enjoy talking about homosexuality, come out of the closet already...j/k, but seriously, enough of the homosexuality talk.  It's not classy.

Too bad big brother CapoeiraGoodBoy just dissaquit (yes that is a new word, I will charge you to use it)

Brother Jason, I enjoy your spunk and I see you love your art very well, but they are full of plea to the emotion. Capoeira is not one voice has never been and will never be, diversity is the richness of even the angola circle. I know you will say, you are not preaching 'one voice' and you respect the diversity but your words cut me deep and I just starrted capoeira last night. Pastinha lineage is big outside Brazil for good reasons, but if you have gone to brazil you will soon come to find a big shock, what you have presented above will be a lie at best or an exaggeration at worse.

Everything that expands changes, your quotes around the words does not really change it. What you might be saying is the core of the thing does not change. Water expands and changes its physical character, its essence doesn't well at least that is the science lol. Is it possible capoeira angola expanded and became something else without changing its essence? I doubt you will admit that though

He's off hunting vampires and will be back shortly.  Hunting vampires takes time you know.

 I'm not sure where you are going with this, but I'm not joining any gangup on Jaason, most of the other things he has said, many of his points I agree with. I was talking specificly within Capoeira Angola, I was not speaking outside of it or any modern non-Angola Capoeira.

Within Capoeira Angola I would agree that Mestre Pastinha and his students are more revered and better sources of knowledge about Capoeira Angola than those OUTSIDE of Capoeira Angola.  My point is that WITHIN Capoeira Angola there are masters that do not and never did have ANYTHING to do with Mestre Pastinha.  Mestre Pastinha NEVER presented himself as an end all be all, never. Jason deserves a chance to clarify, he may be getting quoted out of context here, so lets not all gang up on him here.  Give the guy a few days to respond, ok?

Something which CapoeiraGoodboy was talking about is relevant to this topic though, and Brother Jason's persepctive, I think, is important to this question.  CGB sees diversity within the real Capoeira Angola community in Bahia, Salvador etc.  These are the guys who are Angoleiros in name and act, but they are a diverse bunch of individuals, (my words) a beautiful rainbow of artistic expression, that has been that way since waaaay back, before the academies.  Now the core peice that we feel and see this commonality, he sees or feels this same thing within this ritual called Capoeira Regional in Bahia, but maybe not always in this 'non-Angola' Capoeiras out there.   Brother Jason has a strong feeling and opinion, but also a rich base of experience and knowledge to contribute to this conversation.  I only ask to clarify one point, not trying to attack his entire credibility here.

I was driving today, and thought of two differences between capoeira angola and non-capoeira angola.