general question about a contradiction I keep hearing regarding student belt level versus graduado level. We had a girl from another group visit our group the other day, she was a graduado and played a very good game, excellent high level female players don't exist in our local group as none of the girls have been training long enough. I admit to being kinda impressed an said to a couple of other people that she played a really good game and they said `well she's a graduado, you expect it at that level.' these are the same people who happily say each belt has different levels of player within it, an a good capoeirista is not one who nessacerily specialises in a good game in the roda. How can you have both, a level capoeiristas are expected to be at by graduado and a loose expectation of the abilities belts below, it doesn't make sense in theory or practice. No-one is a poor player and wakes up one day with a back flip as a graduado........ 

LOL sorry not sure if you are venting or asking a question? Do you care to elaborate; some of us do not know what the differences between a "student level" and "graduado level" is/are!?!?!??

in any regard, every belt level will have degrees sideways and hierarchical...and it is obviously and ideally dependent on individual work and communal work within the context of said group... but I said ideal, not everything is ideal!...hopefully you can read between the lines hahahaha.

I think those whom you engaged entered into a faux pas with your initial comment...it is like when you meet women who cannot stand men who play overly aggressive and yet you watch their respective game and you swear..."those are men"!!

apologies  by student level I meant all the belts below graduado (which I think is the same as formado? not sure on that one though. basically a graduated student). Are you suggesting that people say one thing and do another, surely not. I wasn't trying to vent, just genuinely puzzled as this odd double standard is something I have come across everywhere, the parralel ideas that the belt reflects the progress of the individual student (hence the frustrsation expressed by some first belts on here and elsewhere when they get the same belt as someone much less skilled) but also, (certainly with the higher belts ie 4th an upwards) must show a level of technical ability in the roda culminating in the level a graduado is expected to be at. Its  as though an unwritten syllabus exists but its only applied to some people.

I loathe the phrase "it is what it is"...I am not in a system that uses a cordao per se, but anywhere humans are you see this double standard reflected over and over again...a consolation for you. A very good friend of mine, stopped "crying" foul and skipped several batizados till he completed some internal and external tasks...he took a different route by vowing to move up (he is now a fourth cord, whatever that means) after he learned to play the berimbau and sing at the same time...(that was 3-4), now he wants to learn Brazilian portugeuse before he will consider moving up and has skipped 2 batizados. He is almost 14yrs in this niche...my point, sometimes comparing your position with others only brings heart and headaches...in his case, he put his growth squarely in his hands. He is very respected because children gravitate towards him...my advice try as much as possible to stay away from internal politics...do you while respecting other yous (community). Ultimately, that raise (this time a belt) comes in different packages...a belt, well a belt is just a belt...the metric is simply you and it goes a long way!

Honestly, who gives a shit about rank?

I haven't been fully engaged with capoeira for a couple of years now, but the 'belt/cord/cordao/rope' thing always annoyed me. Pretty much every group has different colours, some have 20+ belts, others 4 or 5, others none at all. I remember as a young capoeirista with a yellow cord (our first) seeing another yellow at a batizado absolutely blow people away............. turns out that yellow in that group is a hell of a lot closer to Mestre. So what did the colour of the pretty little bit of rope around their waist signify? Absolutely NOTHING to anybody outside of their particular group.

SO now I've been training BJJ for 6 years or so, I'm a purple belt. The thing is, a purple belt holds the same meaning across ALL BJJ schools. Sure, there are slightly differing standards, levels etc, as is gong to happen in any art. Some people will train 2, 3 times a day and be competitiors on the world stage, others are happy to simply play for a hobby. But ultimately, all the belt does is hold your pants up (or your gi closed).

We had a guy come to train recently who trained mostly no gi. In that particular tradition, there is no set belt system in place. He told us initially he had trained for a month or 2 but, after rolling with him for about 30 seconds, I could easily tell that he was FAR more experienced than he first implied. Thus, to my point.

A belt represents different things to different people. To some, Aptitude. To some, attitude. To others, persistence. In capoeira, there are so many MORE variables. Musical ability? Sometimes. Acrobatic ability? Sometimes. Fight ability? Sometimes. The variables are almost limitless, depending on the values of the Mestre, or group. Ultimately though, in any martial art with live sparring, a belt or grade counts for nought if you can't back it up. And your true ability shows VERY quickly where you are put in a position where you have to demonstrate your ability.

As for your last sentence, no, noone goes from gumby to brilliant overnight. It's called learning. Consider most school systems. A high school graduate is much more adept (one hopes) than a kindergarten student. And as a teacher who also has a son who just finished kindy (his first year of school) I can tell you that development WITHIN that one year was remarkable. As it is on each year through the journey. Consider each belt to be a grade at school. When you finish, you have certainly progressed a long way from where you began. The Year 3 student on his first day in the grade is vastly different to the Year student on his last day of the year.

Double Post. God I HATE this new forum structure.

I agree with almost all of your post Grande, except of this. I'm shure that gradation is very important because of many reasons. Despite anybody will say, people love to compare with other people, it gives you definition of yourself. If there is no ranks, if student is not aware of being "better than yellow cords, not so bad for a orange, worser than laranja-azul" he could get lazy or confused because of Great Relativism :) - "the other gu, he's better, but I'm smarter, he beats me down, but he's not so good, etc". Cordaos settle down some stuff at the start of arguement - you earn your degree, so there's no question about it.

Few months ago I got into very interesting situation. I'm into BJJ a little bit, like you. Started mma 10 years ago, then switched to judo, now I'm rolling on the tatami for 3-4 years at BJJ classess. Never been interested in getting new faixa, main thing for me was to fight and train. People - my friends - got used to this, that I'm this 'heavy capoeira guy' whith white belt and that's all. I started to compete 2 years ago, but last time judge asked me, why I don't start with blue belts, because it seems that I have enough skills and could be unfair to stay at white belts. Other situation was when I moved to another city and started to learn bjj here. People did not know me, so I started to fight and win with white, blue, even purple belts and I saw few of them really angry asking me why I'm still white. That's why, after not even a month my instructor has given me my blue belt (which now I'm really proud of :)) and I started to realize what kind of motivation is it for me (and demotivation for others when I've been still on white).

Personally within the group is only where it matters if you make it matter beyond the things you can control...Capoeira fortunately is not BJJ, MMA or whatever abbreviation and nomenclature they currently have for physical contact sports. Nor is the value nowadays attached to a thing, again I support an inward view a reflection of what a belt means to the wearer and only that...the minute one makes a comparison outwardly, to me it looses its true value within the context of the art. Lets not forget the belt systema was added as part of a way to legitimatize the artform; squarely taken from the "Eastern Martial system"...today we are using a western approach to look at a system that is actually antithesis to capoeira.

To play in an open roda for example, is to understand yourself first and whom it is in front of you...not by the belt, so again who gives a shitzu about rank...?

It's not your first question about rank Lenon - I wouldn't bother to spend to much time thinking about it.

Consider this tho, this graduado thing is more about the mestre, than the player. It's the master who decides who becomes a graduado etc based on his knowledge of the player, and his vision of capoeira. So of course this will vary between groups.

Were you under the impression that capoeira is one of the more organised martial arts? and that organisation and structure is consistent beteween different groups?

I think you're just venting a wee bit :)

Lever, Honestly not venting on this one just trying to understand, its more of a question of ability an expectations. I am just very confused by what is expected at each belt. On the one hand you have the hippy shit, `yeah man its all good' on the other you have what appears to be a universal belief that people should have x number of skills by a certain level. They are diametric opposites and people just pick whichever fits in with their thoughts at the time.  I understand that a belt is an acknowledgement of progress and some students start at a much lower level than others an their progress should eb acknowledged; but when is the point when someone has a belt that is a liability to them in the roda, ie their progress since they began training is equal to or greater than other people of that level but they are naturally so much slower they aren't playing at that level, not sure if the worse case scenario at this point is then they get the stink kicked out of them or they loose respect from the other players as they are not at what is the universally expected (but not enforced) level for that belt.. I dunno....

Man am I the only one who equates using the word "belt" referring to a capoerista's cord like nails on a chalkboard? One of the first thing you learn in capoeira is that its called a cord not a belt, and usually I hear this from people learning capoeira from a video, which means if you are learning capoeira from a video, even if you buy your own cordas you will not be recognized unless you practice under a certain lineage.

A guy joined our group a year ago, claimed he was a blue/green corda, he stated this was the 5th rank out of like 15 ranks in his old system in chicago. He came to sign up but wasnt in his abadas, he was wearing jeans and a button up shirt. Our mestre asked him if he wanted to join the roda, he said no due to his attire and just wanted to watch.

Our mestre asked for the information on his old school to get in touch with his mestre, he didnt have it and only claimed his mestre was "macaco verde" which means green monkey in portuguese, this mestre he stated was located in chicago. Next roda he came in abadas and his blue/green corda. Our mestre told him that he could not get in touch with "macaco verde" but would give him a try. This is how the following conversation went:

New Student: "So would I be able to get the equivalent belt to what I have here?"

Our Mestre: "The equivalent what?"

New Student: "The equivalent belt."

Our Mestre: "Do you mean cord?"

New Student: "No....my belt?" (pointing to his cord).

Our Mestre: "Thats a cord."

At this point we all fought not to laugh out of respect for our mestre.

New Student: " Ya whatever."

We started the roda and said student was very jarry, no flexibility, he pulled off the moves but in an odd way.

He remained with us for about 3 weeks and didnt make the cut (on his own accord). He admitted on week 2 he had been learning capoeira from videos for about a year and bought his own cordas online and "graduated himself" with his own system of cords he created. What a whackjob.

Now to answer your question in a somewhat intelligent way which I failed to see in the above posts.

There are ranks, USUALLY they depend on the grupo but most are as follows:

ALUNO - Regular capoerista.

GRADUADO - Youve attained a high skill level and can perform all skills.

FORMADO - A student who mastered all capoeira skills and often can start teaching at this level or monitoring classes under a professor/mestre etc.

PROFFESSOR - At this level you can open your own grupo. Often professores will work under a lineage (under a mestre).

CONTRA-MESTRE - The next level after a professor graduates.

MESTRE - Usually 20+ years of experience and capoeira community recognition.

Some grupos also incorporate the rank "monitor" which is when the capoeirista starts to teach, some grupos will interchange this woth formado.

Cordas (or belts as some of you crudely have used here) are spread in between these ranks, sometimes as few as 6 total belts and as many as 24.

Axe.

hahahahahahahhahahaha you must be Brazilian or a purist or both...j/k

Anywayz the idea was taken from a belt system from the East...as so carries fundamentally the same concept; now whether it is called a belt, rope, cord or cordao within the context of the forum we all know what is been alluded to.

Thanks for sharing that hilarious story; to me it definitely adds to the point many are already saying...a belt is only meaningful within the scope of the group...more important internally to the wearer...

Yeah, an WhyTF can't you learn from the internet?! I like your story but he obviously didn't watch the right videos. Not that its any of your buisness mate but this is my top trainer dude(we don't use the word `mestre' in our group, masters are what the slaves had an we aren't slaves to anything), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASTA4ooPkLk&feature=related don't be fooled by the name, its all african disparer, maybe a bit different and no we don't have `cords'. We have work on coloured clothing the brighter you are the higher the grade.

peace out an keep dancing

Seems like it, yup.

Sounds to me like you are far too hung up on what to call the piece of stuff that stops your pants from falling down, and not really bothered to develop any social skills.

Bloody arrogant pandas.

As for your concept of Graduado and above being able to perform 'all skills'...... What a crock of shit. Where is the list of 'all skills' you speak of? Is it just a simple case of showing these 'skills' and then collecting your rank? What about abundantly experienced mestres whose physical capabilities have waned with time? Should they be demoted because their parafuso just doesn't cut it anymore? Regional guys who don't know the intricacies of the various chamadas? Angoleiros with minimal acrobatic style floreios?

I think I've made my point.

This whole thread is a bit funny to me.  I like and don't like cords at the same time.  I don't like cords because people don't always get them when they should.  Some people get them when they shouldn't and it makes them drop out or train less because too much pressure is put on them or all of a sudden they realize that they can get kicked for real.  Then some people get held back too long and they train less because of it because they feel like they can't move up and it's not worth it.  These are things that should be taken into account along with does he/she have the skills, tricks, music, singing, acrobatics, history, culture, language, politics, etc, etc, etc.  The reality is that cords are as elusive as capoeira itself.  Actually, cords reflect capoiera, the good, the bad, and the ugly quite well.  Some groups don't have them but seem to keep some form of hierarchy.  Some groups have them.  Moving up is entirely up to the Mestre and can vary from skill level to how well he/she likes the student, or even the students popularity within the group.  Also, where some mestres might like the fact that a student can do acrobatics, in some circles, they might prefer that the student know martial arts, or cultural or historical studies, or music, or something else.  I heard once of a capoeira conference where they were going to decide on a belt (cord) system.  Mestre Bimba was there, Mestre Acordeon was there, many other great mestres were there.  They all decided on a standardized cord system.  Then as soon as it was over, they all turned around and did their own thing.  There is a lesson in there.  ALL of the mestres did this.  What people don't get is that, that IS capoeira.  Saying "yes, I agree", when you need to...and then turning around and doing what you REALLY feel that you need to.  So uhm, yeah...to say the least, the cord system is reflective of capoeira in general.

I think people are missinmg the base of this question, why is there a greater desparity between lower cordao students as compared to higher? Pretty simple, its a funnel process. Why does almost everyone make it thru grade school, most graduate highschool, some graduate college, fewer get masters, very few get PhDs?

The standards get increasingly higher and you need extreme commitment to reach the higher levels. Usually you also see a pretty big difference in the amount of beginners vs advanced students, people drop off at a point. When it comes to a graduado, we use the term formado more in my group as someone who has been deemed finished with their direct training with their Mestre and ready to teach their own group. This doesn't imply a specific skillset, but it means the mestre is backing the student to represent their capoeira and spread it. So guess what, their game should be proficient. Whereas you can get your first few cordaos by showing up and paying your dues, you can't really become graduado/formado/professor by default.

@Lennon...sorry in the spirit of the forum, I will have to pull this one into the light just for a bit...

ok don't you think it is ironical that the nature of this string is about a belt, cord, rope, cordao...that 'thing that holds the pants up' and here you mention "we aren't slave to anything"...including a nome for that who holds knowledge...two questions; What do you address other Mestre outside your group? and if you were studying say one of the Chinese martial arts, what would you address the teacher if they wanted to be called shifu? I understand it is a group thing, but it seems something else lies beyond what you said...  :P

Hers is actually more complicated...she more or less accepts the pyramid of the cords...I think, it seems more about the "other pyramid" within a level and implicitly the politics associated with it...

I beg to differ, YES you CAN't...lol where you around in the late 80's, early 90's...? (but of course I understand what you actually mean, it still is arguable...)

*What do you address other Mestre outside your group? and if you were studying say one of the Chinese martial arts, what would you address the teacher if they wanted to be called shifu? I understand it is a group thing, but it seems something else lies beyond what you said*

LOL I was thinking the same thing..

How about this:

Who are YOU in capoeira? If one stays secular in their group/town/academy then really what does it matter what your title is?  Never been to brasil? Part of some self made group that doesnt even have roots in brasil?  Do you go to events? are you invited to events? How do you contribute to capoeira? What are you doing with what your Mestre is passing to you?

Weve had an individual attend our events for years now, at first on his own, didnt ask for a discount or any special treatment, at the time he was an instructor. Without asking he helped out, lead warmups if need be, chatted with students all because he wanted to, not because it was a payday. I respected that.. we respected that.. he is now an integral part of our weekend and we have him as an invited guest regularly.

It didnt happen JUST because he had a cordao with some weight on it.. those people NEVER get invited back...but because he genuinely had an interest in us, our Mestre, and ultimately capoeira.  This reflects first, on him, second on his Mestre, who would recognize this in him, and promote him so.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here.

Its not about gaining status.  Its about promoting the energy of Capoeira, which is about people , students and learning etc.  The events and gatherings, classes of Capoeira, that is what Capoeira is for most.  Its all of it, a positive energy, axe we create as a group.  Its not being able to do this or that or beating this guy or that guy or whatever.  If peopel get that and apply themself to it then everything comes with it.  Sure there is probalby some negative spaces out there and some power abuses, but its not hard to find the positive groups, to find the axe.

Around a lot of groups you'll find people playing big roles in groups that aren't even necessarily Capoeiristas ,but who play a role.  Maybe someone's spouse, maybe the owner of a space.  maybe a musician.  You get all kinds of people, and they earn their place by prividing something to everyone.  Its not about ranks and belts.  When you show the positive energy you'll ahve people rooting for you to get that next cord, calling you by titles before you are ready for them etc.  Because you've shown maturity that you are ready to take on responsibility.  and stuff.

@Ejodudu - "hahahahahahahhahahaha you must be Brazilian or a purist or both...j/k"

I am Brazilian yes lol, as far as a purist, not so much otherwise I think I'd be playing angola, which at its current state isnt pure anyways but thats for another discussion...lol.

@Ejodudu - "Thanks for sharing that hilarious story; to me it definitely adds to the point many are already saying...a belt is only meaningful within the scope of the group...more important internally to the wearer..."

Very well put, actually this is what Ive always argued, Ive heard people say the corda is only important to each grupo but Ive gone as far as to say its deeper then that, it has its own individual meaning to each capoerista, which is why I "freak out" when its called a belt, to me the color and rank isnt the importance the importance is the cord itself, as it was a tradition created by mestre bimba and as such commands respect. Thats why I think the color system varies within each grupo, its not the color, its the cord system itself.

As far as the ranks, I know people within my own grupo who are caught up in it, to some it serves as bragging rights and others as a silent struggle to better themselves in a visual way.

As far as Im concerned "Ya I care about the cordas, not because it impresses anyone, but because it serves as a personal obstacle I have to surpass...for myself.

I could care less if its a corda or a number from one to 10 that my mestre whispers to me as I progress, its not about the world....its about me.

@lennon - "Yeah, an WhyTF can't you learn from the internet?!"

Well I can get a Doctorate of medicine online in as little as 16 months and start practicing medicine....that however wont make me a very goood doctor however will it?

I am guilty of learning from the net myself, there are great videos out there, but if you dont have an experienced teacher telling you "Hey your hands should be here" and "Stand a bit more to the right." youre not learning very well now are you?

@lennon - "masters are what the slaves had an we aren't slaves to anything"

Wrong! Simply wrong. Read more on the history of capoeira and educate yourself. Capoeira history is rich and extremely intresting. It wont disappoint ad definately worth the read.

@lennon - "we don't use the word `mestre' in our group"

The word "mestre" is literally used in the capoeira community as a whole. If you go to a batizado and fail to show the mestres there the respect they have earned you will also embarrass yourself and your grupo, unless of course you learned from the internet, at which case you will only embarrass yourself, which also doesnt make sense since you probably wont be invited to batizados unless you are in a grupo. The mestres have earned that respect, who are any of us to take it away?

@Grande - "Sounds to me like you are far too hung up on what to call the piece of stuff that stops your pants from falling down, and not really bothered to develop any social skills."

I thought I was posting on a thread about cordas.....if theres ever a place to talk about it ...its here.

@Grande - "As for your concept of Graduado and above being able to perform 'all skills'...... What a crock of shit. Where is the list of 'all skills' you speak of?"

A mestre will know which skills I speak of and knows how to properly rank a student, after all...they are mestres. Said skills are what the mestres look for not at the batizado but way before the batizado. As everyone knows the Batizado isnt a test but a celebration, at the batizado you dont have to prove yourself, youre getting a new corda because you already did. As far as being demoted I dont think you ever lose your capoeira once you achieve a certain level, I think its kind of like driving a car...muscle memory my friend.

@Grande - "I think I've made my point."

Hmmm...I think thats subjective.

@Espantalho - Man youve made some really intresting statements I really liked, I will list them:

" I like and don't like cords at the same time" Thats how me and some in my grupo feel as well.

"people don't always get them when they should.  Some people get them when they shouldn't" Very true.

" Actually, cords reflect capoeira, the good, the bad, and the ugly quite well" Agreed.

"the cord system is reflective of capoeira in general." Yup.

@Meninao - Our mestre talked about this a few months back....how intresting you should bring it up. He used the word funnel as well. I agreed with your whole post.

Axe.

Also in regards to the story I posted, as it was happening I kept thinking "man our mestre is never going to let this guy practice capoeira with our grupo" but in the end I remember a famous capoeira saying by mestre Bimba "Capoeira e para todos, mas nem todos sao para capoeira" (roughly: Capoeira is for everyone, but not everyone is for capoeira)

Freaking Brazilians hahaha thank you for taking the time to answer everyone wow; where were you when we were discussing Orisha. Well I agree with the things you said and yes Angola is pure

I dont know if Id say Angola is pure in its modern state, it is however as pure as it gets today. Its beautiful to watch as well. We did a 24 hour roda (crazy I know) we had like 10 mestres, a shit ton of professores and contramestres....it was huge, anyways, the mestres took turns "commanding the roda". In the mix was a ton of angoleiros, mestres and alunos alike. Man it was beautiful to watch. Even some of us regionais tried to get in there with them thinking "meh...well just slow down for them and well be fine"....ya we learned a rough lesson that day lol.

Edit: As far as the Orixas, my only experience has been when I was very little in Brasil (maybe 10 years old).  I frequented a Centro Umbanda, and saw some things I wish I hadnt. Were talking possesions (saw a 14 year old girl get possesed by Preto Velho and start talking like a 80 year old man, drank liquor and smoke a cigar, were also talking yelling, screaming the whole bit, nasty stuff. Black magig at its best, in Brasil we call it "Mesa Preta" (black table) and Mesa Branca (white table) signifying the good and bad of Umbanda. Sometimes on days I reminisce Brasil I think "Man, I wonder if something stuck around with me from there all these years." but I shake that off real quick. Today Iam totally content with the energy of the roda, which, unless you experience first hand you wont really know (another reason why learning from videos isnt a good idea lol). I dont try to channel anything, or summon anything, I just try to soak up as much energy as I can which gets me through the week.

Axe.

meninao: I think people are missinmg the base of this question, why is there a greater desparity between lower cordao students as compared to higher? Pretty simple, its a funnel process. Why does almost everyone make it thru grade school, most graduate highschool, some graduate college, fewer get masters, very few get PhDs?

 Yes gentleman that was indeed my question, not about the value of each belt /corda/ bitta rope (apply personal name here.....)that debate has been had a milion times on here and as Lever pointed out I have already asked a question related to it.(not that the answers that assumed that was my queston haven't been intresting )

We don't mix with other mestres outside our group, or other groups, I dunno if you checked out the Hat of our top trainer dude in the vid but that clearly means the tradition is linked to Angola. As some have already pointed out on this thread it is the pure spring from which all capoeira is born (an not in any way altered by Mestre Pastinha, the original capoeiristas also supported the brazil footy team and wore those colours). We are so fliping pure we are like a clear river, you can see right through us and so people think they have nothing to learn from us (A cunning form of malicia I am sure you agree) an we surely have nothing to learn from them to muddy the purity of our trad. If my top trainer dude knew I was on here learning divisive things he would proper freak. An chinese martial arts have nothing to teach us so your second question is irrelevant. I mean anyone who's teachers title sounds like a sneeze aint really that reputable are they?

lennon

P.S: capoeira panda: there are people on here better qualified than I to answer this but I was under the impresions Mestre Bimbas students didn't have cords,( although they may have had Belts to hold their trousers up.) they just had a silk neckerchief to stop a razor blade slicing their throat.

Damn man you really had me going until I saw the video lol. I was like "Man who does this guy think  he is? Hitler? All this, we are pure and you are muddy crap....let me go see that video." Then..."WHat the?....Oh....He got me lol"

And its not ever april fools lol.

Axe.

 @capoeira Panda: I thought you watched the vid the first time and were playing along

No....you got me....as embarrasing as it is I fell for it. lol

You just became my capoeira Arch Namesis........lol.

Axe.

 I must practice my white tiger style capoeira then; until we meet

fight the damn spam!!!

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